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Dino Talk Mar. 5-8, 2002: A Dinosaur Forum


1986 seems to have been an imporant year for Dinosaurian Phylogeny.
Sereno established the Cerapoda, and the Marginocephalia in that year, and Gauthier defined the Deinonychosauria (hos definition was proven to be false later, but still...) which Colbert and Russell had coined in 1969. Wait, 1969 was also an important year... I guess they're all important years.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 8, 2002


"Is there anything new in paleontology then?"
Oh yes, quite a bit.
First of all, a small 1 meter Dromeosaur has been found that has true feathers, lie the ones we see in modern birds.
Second, two scientists at Stanford University (very close to my home)
determined that T-rex didn't have enough muscle mass to run at 45 mph, like in Jurassic Park, and they suggest that T-Rex walked at an average pace of about 10 mph., and ran at about 25 mph.
Those are the two main things, you can check dinosaur sites for more details.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 8, 2002


"The fact that T-Rex was crowned the biggest theropod may stop due to the dicovery of Giganotosaurus and the Spinosaurids."

Hey! Now we have someone else to talk to!
T-rex is more heavily built than Spinosaurus, so perhaps heavier.
The giant T-rex might have been up to 55 ft. long. But as T.M. proved, the actual size of T-imperator is a controversial issue.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 8, 2002


"No, T - Master also knows loads about dinosaurs (I think) except he is really rare."
Oh, yeah. He's so rare I forgot about him. Sorry T-master.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 8, 2002


The fact that T-Rex was crowned the biggest theropod may stop due to the dicovery of Giganotosaurus and the Spinosaurids.
from Termaine . J, age 12, Tampa, Florida; March 8, 2002


"You do realize that you and I are the only people here who can talk about complex anatomy and Phylogenetics and stuff like that. We have to find some kind of topic that everyone will want to talk about. People like Gianna, Joe Bob, and Tom G. talked the most when there were nasty favorite dinosaur argumants going on."

No, T - Master also knows loads about dinosaurs (I think) except he is really rare. He is hardly ever here.

And I'm not good at starting topics.

Is there anything new in paleontology then?
I'm not good at keeping up to date, I'm not actually subscribed to any paleontology magazines.

from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 8, 2002


"And compsognathus doesn't have a coronoid process or an external mandibular fenestra so it had a weak bite! And it had massive eyes. I reckon it must have had sclerotic ossicles just they didn't get preserved. It must have hunted insects."

Absolutely. It also had a slender wiry neck, and you can tell in dinosaurs that the evolution of a powerful skull also came with the neck getting shorter and thicker.

You do realize that you and I are the only people here who can talk about complex anatomy and Phylogenetics and stuff like that. We have to find some kind of topic that everyone will want to talk about. People like Gianna, Joe Bob, and Tom G. talked the most when there were nasty favorite dinosaur argumants going on.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 7, 2002


Is Joe Bob actually here? I hope he's not gone.

The procompsognathus in TLW could not have attacked the girl becasue the only ate small mammals and things like that.

And compsognathus doesn't have a coronoid process or an external mandibular fenestra so it had a weak bite! And it had massive eyes. I reckon it must have had sclerotic ossicles just they didn't get preserved. It must have hunted insects.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 7, 2002


"Who here had _The Dinosauria_? A most excellent book."
I read that a while ago. It's good, but it's outdated sometimes.

As for Elaphrosaurus, as I said, it's difficult to place this dinosaur anywhere because it is quite incomplete, and it's features do not match many Synapomorphical characters of large Dinosaurian Phylogenetic groups. But I agree with you, it's quite likely that it is a primitive Bullatosaur for the reasons you stated. In one book I saw the Phylogeny of the Ceratosauria according to Holtz, Rowe, and Sereno, that shows Elaphrosaurus in it. But in the book it says : "It has been suggested by some authors that E. bambergi was part of this group."

It's great to find a subject that can be a topic for more than two posts!
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 6, 2002


"ummm...I did?"

Yes you did; Brad told you where it was.

You can check the archives if you want.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 6, 2002


"What do you guys think about the position of Elaphrosaurus bambergi within the Therepoda?"

That is highly disputable. It may even not really properly come under any currently existing family of dinosaur. Surely as evolution does not just happen overnight there must gradual change in one species as it evolves into another. But where do you put the boundary where an animal stops being a particular species and becomes another? I think it isn't that sharply defined; evolution does happen gradually after all.

Who here had _The Dinosauria_? A most excellent book.

Here is an excerpt from the "Dinosaur Taxonomy/Ornithomimosauria" section on page 241:

"As is expected, the Late Jurassic African _E. Bambergi_ is the most primitive species and displays many ancestral theropod characters (e.g.,the preacetablular process of the ilium weakly extended cranioventrally, the femur is sigmoidal)."

All these animals are known from is a fragmentary postcranium, and isolated limb elements from _E. gautieri_ and _E. iguidiensis_. Which are nomina dubia. And it is possible that Elaphrosaurus is related the ornithomimosauria, since the ornithomimosauria evolved from dinosaurs which did have teeth, elaphrosaurus may just be an early stage.

I really do doubt that Elaphrosaurus is a ceratosaur, it is really quite primitive, and when ceratosaurs first appeared in Carnian (that'll be late triassic. I do strongly recommend for everyone to learn the stages) North America, they where already highly specialised (Yes I am checking up Ceratosauria in _The Dinosauria_ right now).

If Elaphrosaurus is a Ceratosaurid, it's an early primitive one, and Elaphrosaurus appears only in late Jurassic times. Since we do not know anything about pre-carnian ceratosaur history, ("The oldest taxon is among the most derived ceratosaurs, possessing twenty apomorphies derived within the group and suggesting that a considerable portion of ceratosaur history does not appear in the fossil record.") and when ceratosaurs appeared they where already very advanced for the triassic, it is safe to assume that all primitive ceratosaurs would be found in pre-carnian times. They appear often in late triassic and early jurassic times, and by the late jurassic they where larger, bulkier animals, and I really doubt Elaphrosaurus is anything to do with the ceratosauria.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 6, 2002


"Tom G went on it I remember"

ummm...I did?
from Tom G, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 5, 2002


"Drawing the plates on the Stegosaur at a craniodorsal angle is tortue"

I just thought this was funny because "tortue" means turtle in French. But yes, I know you meant to say "torture".

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 5, 2002


"And Franz Nopcsa first proposed the Thyreophora in 1915."
Then my guess was pretty much on target. Yay!

What do you guys think about the position of Elaphrosaurus bambergi within the Therepoda? I read a while ago that it is excepted by many people, including Sereno and Holtz, that E.bambergi is Neoceratosaurian, closely related to the Abelisauroidea and Ceratosaurus nasicornis. It also seems to resemble Coelophysoids, in my opinion. I even read a book suggestion Elaphrosaurus was a primitive Ornithomimid! It's hard to be 100% sure of oneself when assigning a Therepoda to the Ceratosauria, because they lack Synapomorphies(well, I mean there aren't many Synapomorphies that are universally accepted as being Ceratosaurian). And, I think there are only 20 or so Ceratosaurs, some of which are incompletely known. These are some of the reasons I'm in a "Cerratosaur mood" right now.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 5, 2002


"You're welcome!"

Yes, Thank you.

And Franz Nopcsa first proposed the Thyreophora in 1915.
Not that I know many dates. My memory can be compared to a seive.

Did you know that Franz Nopcsa thought that cervical vertebrae from a young tanystropheus where elongated phalanxes on a tribelesodon!
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 5, 2002


Drawing the plates on the Stegosaur at a craniodorsal angle is tortue. What was that site which teaches you how to draw dinosaurs? Tom G went on it I remember.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 5, 2002


"but how many on their arms?"
You're welcome!

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 5, 2002


"but how many on their arms?"
Five toes. You were right.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 5, 2002


"When was the Thyreophora first proposed by Nopcsa?"
Hmmm... I couldn't tell you the precise date if I tried. But It's probably in beetween 1900 and 1930.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 5, 2002


"When dinosaurs where first found, Gideon Mantell, Dean William Buckland and Richard Owen thought of them as warm-blooded, agile, animals, they even made connections between them and birds. Then, closer to Victorian times, the view of dinosaurs began to change. A quote from Ian Malcolm: "...they where made slow, lethargic, and dumb." The logic was that as they where extinct there must have been good reason. But then with the help of people like Sereno and Ostrom we began to see Dinosaurs the way they realy where, varied, diverse, often very agile creatures that ruled the world for 125 million years with good reason"

Yes, I agree.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 5, 2002


"You picked the best known dinosaur in terms of by who and when it was named, Tim."

Well, I was hoping that someone else besides you would be able to answer it. I was already sure that it would be too easy for you.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 5, 2002


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