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Dino Talk Dec. 23-24, 2001: A Dinosaur Forum

Remember da masta, when I wrote down the length of Giganotosaurus, I also stated that if the length is true, and as of now the largest specimen we have of Giganotosaurus is I believe 43 or 47 ft lng. As of now, that is what the books and facts say, so this is the reason why I believe that T-Rex can be in Giga's league for length as well...Until of course a bigger Rex or Giga is found... :)
from ***DinoSol***, age 19, Green Bay, WI, USA; December 24, 2001


http://www.twoguysfossils.com has what they claim are Spinosaurus teeth for $15-30. They're small teeth, about 1 to 1.75 inches long.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; December 24, 2001


Uh...I meant the FA-MAS in semi-automatic Honkie. Of course the states don't allow automatic weapons!! The FA-MAS would be used for sporting purposes and varmint hunting, and maybe home defense. Are anti-gun or something?
from Nick, age 17, Denver, CO, USA; December 24, 2001


I think T Rex would've killed Triceratops but only either sub adult or juvinile healthy ones or very sick adult ones.
from Tom G, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


Hey everyone, I really don't care for your insults! You're only revealing the truth about your sad personalities! I'll answer those who deserve any attention at all tomorrow, if I can.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"I think the "Raptors" are too hyped. I mean this one time I saw this scupture of a quartet of dromaesaurs(spelling?) attacking a huge hadrosaur, and the size different is like a cat to a deer. I don't think "raptors" were this damned efficient!! Give the herbivores some credit man...from the size different the Hadrosaur looked like it could just fart and a "raptor" would die."

Raptors like Deinoychus did hunt prey much larger than itself (this is proved by the fossil with a Tenontosaurus and 4 Deinoychus) but not huge hadrosaurs. And thats strange that they show the raptors attacking a hadrosaur because the raptors that hunted prey near the size of a hadrosaur (Utahraptor, Deinoychus) lived long before hadrosaurs.
from Tom G, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


Gee, I'm so tired. I'll finish typeing tommorow, starting with Brad.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"HEY!! HAS ANYBODY SEEN THE SPINOSAUR TEETH FOR SALE!!!THEY ARE UNDER 100 US DOLLARS."

Where?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"Dinoman200, a stegosaurus was one of the most mentally stupid dinos that ever lived. there is no way it could beat a t-rex"

I don't think that brains has very much to do with it. Because a stegosaur knew all it needed to know, and it could do all it needed to do to be a successful animal. It knew how to turn it's side to the tyrannosaur, bellow, move around to keep facing the tyrannosaur in the same way, fush it's plates with blood, and swing it's tail at the predator. But a tyrannosaur could kill a stegosaur in most cases I guess. But stegosaurs wheren't too stupid.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


">_< ack, all of you have so much more knowledge about dinosaurs here. I feel so....stupid here. I'm trying to find a place where I can talk about dinosaurs with individuals whose not so smart....=\ oh well, I'll just continue reading for as long."

I know how you feel neko. I feel stupid here aswell but I'm staying here because this website is so cool!! :)

Merry Christmas
from Tom G, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"da masta, have you ever listened to Yoda. Size matters not."

No, I've never listened to Yoda. If you're talking about dromaesaurids, then I disagree. A velociraptor the height of your waist is not going to kill an 8 tonne hadrosaur. You are right in some cases, in fact in very many, but in many others wrong. And this is one of them.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"Actually I suspect there is a great degree of articulation in 'raptor' arms, and the hands could face both inwards or downwards."

Yes, possibly, but do you picture a velociraptor, the height of your waist, and very fragile, attacking anything much bigger than itself?

Well - articulated forearms? Well, that's also very convenient. We have well - articulated forearms and we make lots of complex machines. Well - articulated forearms would certainly make dromaesaurs very good at grabbing small creatures.

The killer claw could have been for fighting each other, but that is very unlikely. They may well have hunted small dinosaurs, about their own size. Ambushing hypsilophodonts, and then darting out real fast and cutting one up. The claw would be devastating on the little animals. I know that no hypsilophodonts have been found from the same time and place as velociraptor, I am merely stating how dromaesaurs hunted from their adaptations. We know only a small percentage of all dinosaurs, there are still loads to be discovered. Larger dromaesaurs like deinonychus antirrhopus and utahraptor ostrommaysorum may well have hunted animals even the size of iguanodon. But the smaller "raptors", like adasaurus, saurornitholestes, dromaesaurus, velociraptor, and phaedrolosaurus would have hunted small game.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


Probably won't take a T-rex much to take on a Stegosaurus. Though they didn't meet in the first place.

Merry Christmas(eve)!
from Diloph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


I agree, in JP3 they were trying too hard to make the Spino look mean, and spoiled the whole movie in the process. Goodarnit, Spino looks lame, we want T-rex!!!
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


Ummmm...
"Whoever is taking advice from yoda is mentally deficient"
Actually, I think he was simply using a quote from star wars to show what he meant. I don't think he meant that da masta should take advice from yoda...

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


Da masta, same here. everyone knows that I am a dino freak and dino braniac and everyone says that dinos are stupid. and not being able to pronounce Velociraptor is pretty sad.
from DanW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"I think if that happened, (extremely unlikely,) that would have to change a lot of views about T - Rex whooping all other dinosaurs. What would you do? I reckon you'd still stick with T - Rex, knowing you."

What on earth are you talking about? I doubt it changes anything, after all, even if (a extremely unlikely "if") T-rex bites at just the feeding 13,400 N at max, he was already far, far ahead and still whooping any dinosaur easily without much sweat. In attack, he just went into overkill. At 13,400, he was already the baddest and buckwildest, and at 13,400 N, he would still be way better then any other dino at smashing bone and rending flesh, just that the overkill factor was not there. See, even in worst-case senairos, T-rec rules.
from Geddit?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"(I think Rigel is a type R, right?)"

Uhhh... Is it?

Hey, I don't know! It's probably on zoomAstronomy.

And JC, just one little question if you don't mind, did you do ALL of the Zoom sites? 'Cause that sure looks like a lot of work to me.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001
Yes, I do. JC


"I doubt Stegosaurus stood too much chance against a T.rex."

T - Rex never met stegosaurus. It was the earlier, berriasian - barremian carnivores that helped to wipe out the stegosaurs in my opinion.

Without the element of surprise I doubt a T - Rex could kill a stegosaur without sustaining injury itself.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"Da Masta, you can stop being a political activist here, nobody cares about you."

Since when are you making decisions for everyone? Anyway, I'm not being a "political activist."

I am here to chat with people about dinosaurs, because there's nowhere else I can, and I like it here. And that's all I do.

Just people like you sometimes just appear here, and randomly attack me. I really don't understand your logic. And I don't really want to. All I want is for you guys (who attack me) to give it a rest and let me talk about dinosaurs.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


Why JP3 crashed at the box office and was virtually disowned and ridiculed by the paleontological community:

In JP3 I think they're trying to put over the Spinosaurus in a big way as the new "bad ass" dinosaur here, hence the "dumpy" T.rex. Early rumors had it that a second T.rex gains revenge on the Spinosaurus, but it appears that those early rumors were false. A lot of the fan sites are up in arms over the 94 minute running time ("not enough dino-action!" was one response) and the fact that T.rex gets the short end of the stick. I guess some fans weren't as tired of the T.rex as they (the movie makers) thought....

Over apparent biasness by Horner is also a factor:

This is what he says in an interview:

"We do know that [the spino] had a skull that was eight feet long, and a body that was about 60 feet long," Jack Horner [said]. "If we base the ferocious factor on the length of the animal, there was nothing that ever lived on this planet that could match this creature. Also, my hypothesis is that T-rex was actually a scavenger rather than a killer. Spinosaurus was really the predatory animal."

Horner's spinosaur and T. rex messages seem to be two eggs in the same
carton. Horner changed everyone's views about dinosaur parenting (or at least hadrosaur parenting), and that must have been a fun accomplishment.

Now he's trying for another coup, but with less success so far -- T. rex was a brobdingnagian buzzard, you see. The problem is, this time he's not basing it on any evidence I've been able to determine.

Limelighting spinosaurus is an end-run way of backburnering T. rex. The whole thing seems more than a little silly to me, and apparently to a lot of other people too. The makers of JP3 made the crucial mistake: They overplayed their Spinosaurus, and as a result, instead of getting "Oooohhhs and Ahhhhhhs", they got 'Yeah right, yeah right, like real." Instead of making Spinosaurus the new "bad ass", they made him the object of ridicue.

Well, this is what happens when you decide to downplay the awesomeness of the great T. rex.
from Larry D., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


T - Rex fossils have been found from 68-65 MYA, and triceratops from 67-65 MYA, indicating that triceratops evolved 1 million years into T - Rexes' reign! This must mean that triceratops was either a fast breeder, or had a reasonably effective defense against T - Rex, which is more likely, in my opinion. I don't know if there are tracks to back me up, (I think there are,) but some experts think that Neoceratopsia not only lived in herds, but when a predator was spotted, the healthy adult individuals went into a circle formation, protecting the young inside, and presenting the predator with a formidable wall of horns and frills.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"They also found a duck billed dinosaur that is almost equally as long as the T-Rex that they had excavated."

I'm not sure that's really surprising, the duckbills have been known to reach much larger sizes. Some specimens excavated in China have indicated lengths of 15 meters."

Ah, you mean Shantungosaurus! Up to 15m long, and 7m tall! That's hardly a new find!

Lambeosaurus from Alberta, Montana, and Baja California also attained lengths of up to 15m long, and this baby lived right at the same time and same place as Tyrannosaurus Rex himself! I think, anyway... I don't know if it lived in the Maastrichtian.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"it would be extremely surprising if the animal could only bite slightly harder then its modern crocodilian counterpart."

I think if that happened, (extremely unlikely,) that would have to change a lot of views about T - Rex whooping all other dinosaurs. What would you do? I reckon you'd still stick with T - Rex, knowing you.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"At my school, they can't even pronouce Velociraptor right.

It's actually pretty sad."

I know how that feels. My knowledge of dinosaurs is well known at my school, and I get a lot of people telling me that all dinosaurs where dumb, and got extinct because they where stupid, etc.

I don't bother correcting them.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"I think t.rex could use his small but powerful arms to haul himself and his kill up onto a large tree and eat it in peace, and when the event arises, he could drop his meal from the tree to secure himself a side dish, cool huh?"

Well, kinda cool but very strange. There are three problems though:

1)T - Rex evolved from ancestors with long arms, the coelurosauria, (yes I know, I only found out here,) so if tyrannosaurids where to climb trees, wouldn't they keep their ancestors' long arms, instead of losing them for those two tiny things they actually had for arms?
Because it sure is easier to climb with long arms!

2)Although very strong for their size, T - Rexes arms could lift a matter of pounds, not tons!

3)Are you a raptor fan? Because I gotta tell you, the only thing a T - Rex was ever scared of is another T - Rex. Leopards haul their kills up trees, but they have a lot to fear, clans of hyenas and prides of lions. T - Rex only had T - Rex to fear, and tyrannosaurs probaly had large, scent-marked territories, so that they didn't come into contact and bash each other too often. Anyway, even if they lived in groups, supposing if all T - Rexes can climb, can't his chums climb up after him and nab it off him?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


We've rehashed the "falling T. rex" on this list quite extensively,
it still does not disqualify T. rex as a high speed carnivore.
Perhaps they had a mechanism for dealing with a high speed fall
(twisting to the side, translating the direction of momentum, etc.)
Perhaps they -simply didn't fall-. It would be quite easy to
demonstrate that the rock climbing life style of mountain goats is
unlikely, as a single slip would result in their crashing to their
death. But the goats persist in clinging to their perches.

Falls by a T. rex might have caused injury, but they might have
been such rare events that the need for greater speed outweighed
any threat of rare falls. It's quite unfair to say that T. rex
couldn't have been so sure-footed simply because we are such
klutzes. Animals take such extreme chances every day.

T. rex was a predator, and it had to catch its prey. Unless you
are ready to bog the whole Creatceous in an endothermic slow dance,
I seriously doubt that T. rex would have any trouble outpacing
such a poky creature as a human being.

Of course, Farlow was simply limiting T. rex from Bakkerian superestimates, and still maintains a reasonable margin of speed of T. rex. Besides, T. rex was not the only dinosaur with potential fall problems, even the Hardosaurs, when falling from their supposed bipedial burst-of-speed stance would have taken considerable damage, while their arms were not as runty as rex, they were still certainly not robust enough to absorb tons of tumbling Hardosaur. If that didn't finish them off, the injuries sustained would put them quite easily on somebodys' dinner plate. Not to mention there are quite a bit of other dinosaurs we can put on the fall-down-go-boom problem, so I see Horner's exclusive narrowvisioned treatement of Tyrannosaurus rex as seemingly the ONLY dinosaur with such problems. I think we've been underestimating dinosaurs in general, like the mountain goat, a fall for them would have been rare, and a few isloated incidents would be considered a evolutionary acceptable for increased speed to catch or escape, not that they were as fast as Bakker says, but I don't think they limited themselves to slow speeds simply because they were afraid to fall. Given a rethink recently in how large bipeds would have moved, and with the current idea that larde bipedial dinosaurs (>2tons) like T. rex employed a non-suspension method of running, a fall seems even less likely.
from Calvin, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


I think t.rex could use his small but powerful arms to haul himself and his kill up onto a large tree and eat it in peace, and when the event arises, he could drop his meal from the tree to secure himself a side dish, cool huh?
from Roc, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


"da masta, have you ever listened to Yoda. Size matters not."

Huh? Whoever taking advice from Yoda is mentally deficent, Yoda does not exist, he's just a shrivled, wrinkled piece of an old fart of green rubber. Advice coming out from such sources should go straight to the rubbish bin.
from WAHAHAHAHA, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"How do you explain the Velociraptor and Protoceratops that were fossilized in a fighting position?"

I assume the Velociraptor was doing something the Protoceratops didn't like (ie. Stealing eggs? Young?) When the animal came along and thus the fight. I seriously doubt a lone Velociraptor would risk attacking a Protoceratops, I mean, Velociraptor was very fragile. Of course, there's more then one way of looking at things, some have suggested that the Velociraptor was just scavenging from a dead Protoceratops when it too died of some other cause, but it seems pretty amazing an already-dead Protoceratops could lock Velociraptors' arm in its jaw.
from King, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


A ratio of 100:1? I'm sorry, I know you're real sad at Triceratops getting whooped by Rex and such and are weeping, but you don't have to make up false stats to spin your fairy tale ending, Triceratops is Triceratops burger to Rex, no sweat. Take a look at this:

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/dinopictures/2001b/bkht.jpg

Good one Honkie!
from WAHAHAHAHA, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 24, 2001


>_< ack, all of you have so much more knowledge about dinosaurs here. I feel so....stupid here. I'm trying to find a place where I can talk about dinosaurs with individuals whose not so smart....=\ oh well, I'll just continue reading for as long.
from Neko, age 11, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


If any of you own or played the lost world game for the playstaion game console, you should see that brachiosaurus CANNOT lower their neck so that it's head + their whole neck is 6ft off the ground, if that would happen, Brachiosaurus would brake his neck off of his body.
from Neko, age 11, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


At my school, they can't even pronouce Velociraptor right.

It's actually pretty sad.
from Raptor Red, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"Actually, it's not that funny. Some people who don't know very much about dinosaurs will beleive it, and end up misinformed. That's bad, education isn't meant to teach things that are wrong."

Tis true, tis true.
from Raptor Red, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"I know not one sixth grader in all of Davis Middle School who likes dinosaurs as much as I do.

Hehehe they all think they are lizards! LOL!"

That's exactly the same with me! I'm probably the only sixth grader or in my whole school that likes dinosaurs =\ When we were doing this math assignment on dinosaurs, they didn't know how to pronounce "EUOPLOCEPHALUS", their like eee--oo--plock--...what? XD
from Neko, age 11, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"Chey, you should have stated it much sooner, you brought everybody on a wild goose chase."

Appologies. I'd figured we were on the same level on that one. :P
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"We all know that dromaesaurids held their hands facing inwards, not ventrally, like they where shown in JP3, because of their carpal bones, and that half - moon shaped bone in their wrists, I'm
not clear about the details, but we get the picture that they held their hands facing inwards."

Actually, it wasn't just Dromaeosaurids that held their hands inwards. All theropods seem to have had this feature.

"Well, that's an adaption for grabbing and holding small mammals, not tearing other dinosaurs! Some people think that they jumped on other dinosaurs, held on with their hands, and kicked at it's side with their legs! But they'd need to have downwards facing hands to do that, and we know that they couldn't move their hands so that the claws faced downwards!"

I think you may be right!

"But, on the other hand, it's very conventient for grabbing small mammals or lizards,and holding them up to bite their little heads and kill them. The velociraptor chases the little mammal, it has
long hands, (comparatively to body size;) and it reaches out with them, and brings it's inward facing hands, like claspers, on either side of the little mammal, moves it's hands inwards, grabs the
mammal, stops, holds it up, bites it's furry little head. That's what it was adapted to do, and that's what it did."

So they don't use their big toe claws in hunting at all? That's sort of surprising.

How do you explain the Velociraptor and Protoceratops that were fossilized in a fighting position?

How do you explain big dromaeosaurids, like Utahraptor?

I would consider submitting your theory to the Dinosaur Mailing List. And don't ask me how to do that, because I don't know. I just read the archives.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; December 23, 2001


Well I may have gone a bit too far with describing Spinosaurus's death from a broken sail or something...I'm just freakin' sick of jurassic park for portraying the dinosaurs like that. You know there is evidence that can handle a Triceratops so I wouldn't really care if someone makes up a story like that(someone else will probably retaliate for me anyway). I like all big theropods, not just T .rex(T.rex is just a favorite) and I also like the real Spinosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Just not those in JP3 and that dumb James Gurney book (Giganotosaurus look nothing like that!!). I'm sure that all theropods were well equiped for how they lived and what they do. The sail on spinosaurus's back I think is like some cooling device akin to an elephant's ears. I certain don't think there is a hump on top Spino's back, this would have slowed it down too much and waste energy carrying it along. It may have been used for signaling kind of like billboards. Have any of you brought the book "Scientific American, Dinosaurs or something it's really cool. It even has a full one page skeletal, muscular, and life restoration of T .rex by Gregory Paul!!(Trust me,very hard to find for any rex fans) It also has a lot of other dinosaur's skeletal restorations in the skeletal gallery (6 pages I think). Oh yeah and an article on T .rex by Erickson and another about the tooth structure by some other guy, sorry my book's in storage, I want it in mint condition. There should be other books written about big theropods. Anyway, "DA-Master" I'm in regrett for what I have said(or typed)... It was a bit stupid...HEY!! HAS ANYBODY SEEN THE SPINOSAUR TEETH FOR SALE!!!THEY ARE UNDER 100 US DOLLARS.
from Stan, age 17, Denver, CO, USA; December 23, 2001


Dinoman200, a stegosaurus was one of the most mentally stupid dinos that ever lived. there is no way it could beat a t-rex
from DanW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


da masta, have you ever listened to Yoda. Size matters not.
from Dave, age 13, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


I'm not offended at all, da masta, infact, you bring up good points!
from Raptor Red, age 11, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"We all know that dromaesaurids held their hands facing inwards, not ventrally, like they where shown in JP3, because of their carpal bones, and that half - moon shaped bone in their wrists, I'm not clear about the details, but we get the picture that they held their hands facing inwards.

Well, that's an adaption for grabbing and holding small mammals, not tearing other dinosaurs! Some people think that they jumped on other dinosaurs, held on with their hands, and kicked at it's side with their legs! But they'd need to have downwards facing hands to do that, and we know that they couldn't move their hands so that the claws faced downwards!"

Actually I suspect there is a great degree of articulation in 'raptor' arms, and the hands could face both inwards or downwards.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


I don't think Chindesaurus lived 232 mya because it lived during the Carninan age. Chindesaurus was ONE of the earliest dinosaurs, but I don't think anyone can be sure that it was the earliest.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"I DON'T THINK WE WOULD HAVE EVOLVED IF IT WAS THAT HOT."
Well, we certainly wouldn't be as close to that sort of a star as we are to the sun, but life evolves on the planet that is just the right distance form the star. Venus and Mercury have surface temperatures that are over 4 times as hot as boiling water. Mars and the Galilean moons are frozen wastelands. There were many reasons why life happened to evolve on Earth, but one of more significant ones was that the Earth was the right distance from the sun. So, along with other circumstances, life could evolve on a planet orbiting a star like Rigel. (I think Rigel is a type R, right?)

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


T-Rex was pretty amazing, he is an uncompromising design that carries the best of speed, power and killing ability, unlike other predatory dinosaurs that have to trade off one severly for another. His speed was unmatched in his weight class and his incredibly muscled body put him on top in strength too, and his killing power is without peer in other families. While most other dinosaurs have single-action killing, killing their prey with one main method, T-Rex employs triple action killing, without tradeoff while selecting in between. T-Rex teeth are unrivaled at crushing the bone of prey, while also causing massive lacerations with the wide teeth at the same time, plus throwing in septic bateria for a good measure, the combination of crushing, bleeding and poisioning made it hard to beat as the ultimate dinosaur predator ever. No other dinosaur carries the T-Rex aura.
from Rexer, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


I doubt Stegosaurus stood too much chance against a T.rex.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"Hey! I was pronoucing it right all this time! :)"

Great! With dinosaurs, it helps to know a little latin.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


Da Masta, you can stop being a political activist here, nobody cares about you.
from King, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"There you have it! T. rex was alive during the Jurassic period! Hahahaha!"

Hey, that's so stupid I gotta join in! Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
LOL!
Actually, it's not that funny. Some people who don't know very much about dinosaurs will beleive it, and end up misinformed. That's bad, education isn't meant to teach things that are wrong.

from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"They also found a duck billed dinosaur that is almost equally as long as the T-Rex that they had excavated."

I'm not sure that's really surprising, the duckbills have been known to reach much larger sizes. Some specimens excavated in China have indicated lengths of 15 meters.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"I heard that Chindesaurus was the earliest dinosaurs.it said that it was ca.232mya. that's hard to believe. that s when the primitive r
reptiles(not dinos) started to evolve and really resemble the dinos.tell me if i'm wrong about that i'm a little rusty with this because of all this talk about mystery writer and stuff totaly off the subject."

What, you mean earlier than staurikosaurus? Wow!

I'm not sure, I'm a little rusty on this too!
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"Yes, I've got that paper here in front of me now. But where does your quote come from? It's not in the paper."

Ah, mystery person, I'd like to join the debate but I lack the info and I do not have the paper.

I would like to repaet my distress signal that I do not know any good "latest dino news" sites, and I want the adresses of any other good sites you know!
SOS!
SOS!

from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"Perhaps I should rephrase myself, then: The experiment conducted by Erickson et al. produced a maximum _T. rex_ bite force of 13,400 N. Yes, _T. rex_ may very well have bitten harder, but we've no empirical data for saying so. As such my saying 13,400 N was at the "upper end of the spectrum" applies to the experimental results, not the theoretical ones."

Chey, you should have stated it much sooner, you brought everybody on a wild goose chase.

"Yes, I've got that paper here in front of me now. But where does your quote come from? It's not in the paper.
And for the record, I just want to point out that Rayfield et al.'s more recent publication says, "Also, _Allosaurus_ adductor-generated bites are in no way comparable to estimated _Alligator missippiensis_ and _Tyrannosaurus rex_ bite forces, both in the region of 13,000 N." (Not that this correlates at all with an "upper end" bite force, but I thought it was worth mentioning.)"

Hmm, I've seen that paper too, but unfortunately, this was an FEA done on Allosaurus fragillis, in which the researchers compaired Allosaurus' maximum attainable bite force to Tyrannosaurus rex and the American Alligator. However, the bite force figure for Tyrannosaurus rex was taken directly from Erickson's paper, rather then an actual FEA result from a Tyrannosaurus simulation (So rather, it's not really a fair match, matching Allosaurus' maximum possible bite against a Tyrannosaur' feeding bite). On the other hand, I've heard of some people deciding to do an FEA on the Tyrannosaurus skull (some time after the Allosaurus you seem to be talking about), and coming up with some really interesting results, but unlike some people here, I have been unable to obtain the paper for a read.

However, if functional morphlogy were to be a guide, paleontologists are quite assured in the ability of Tyrannosaurus to exibit a much higher bite force then the figure generated. The skull and supposed adductors of Tyrannosaurus are massively more heavily built and stouter then Alligator missippiensis, and it would be extremely surprising if the animal could only bite slightly harder then its modern crocodilian counterpart.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"I drew this on Oekaki ESS BBS, and in JP3 velociraptor WOULD look better without feathers. He looks so dorky..."

Agh, no he does not! He looks fine! It's a great drawing!
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


Hey, T - Master, I thought you'd gone for good!

I would like to order some trivia!
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


"Dinosaurs are the coolest animals that ever lived.*HMM, I'D AGREE WITH YOU 0N THAT.* Stegosaurs is my favorite dinosaur.*OK. I LIKE STEGOSAURIDS TOO.*

Stegosaurs was the best dinosaur ever. Sorry people that think differently but if stego lived in the cretatous period it would kick t rexs butt*HMM, I DON'T REALLY THINK SO. STEGO WOULDN'T KICK T - REXES BUTT, BUT T - REX WOULDN'T KICK STEGO'S. STEGO COULD PROBABLY KEEP T - REX AT BAY. I'LL TELL YOU A LITTLE ABOUT STEGOSAURS (I'M NOT SAYING THAT YOU DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT STEGOSAURS, JUST I'VE GOT A POINT TO PROVE!) STEGOSAURS HAD THEIR HAYDAY IN THE JURASSIC, THEY MULTIPLIED AND DIVERSIFIED INTO MANY DIFFERENT FORMS. BUT, AROUND THE EARLY CRETACIOUS, THEY WENT INTO SHARP DECLINE. BY THE HAUTERIVIAN (OR BARREMIAN, OR SOMETIME AROUND THEN, I'M NOT SURE, I'D BE GRATEFULL IF SOMEONE HELPED ME HERE,) THERE WAS ONLY 1 SPECIES LEFT. IN INDIA. THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE AND LATE JURASSIC AND MOST OF THE CRETACIOUS, INDIA WAS SEPARATE FROM ALL OTHER LAND, INDIA WAS AN ISLAND SURROUNDED BY SEA, RATHER LIKE AUSTRAILIA. AND WE KNOW THAT DUE TO AUSTRAILIA'S ISOLATION, IT HAS DEVELOPED MANY UNI! QUE FORMS OF LIFE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE ON EARTH; ALMOST ALL OF AUSTRAILIAS NATIVE SPECIES ARE UNIQUE. THE SAME WAS WITH INDIA. AND WHEREAS TYRANNOSAURS DOMINATED EVERYWHERE ELSE, THEY COULDN'T GET TO INDIA, IT WAS AN ISLAND TOO FAR AWAY FOR THEM TO CONQUER. INDIA HAD THE OLD, PRIMITIVE CARNIVORES LIKE INDOSUCHUS, AGAINST WHICH STEGOSAURS WHERE SO EFFECTIVE. AND THAT WAS WHERE THE LAST EVER STEGOSAUR, DRAVIDOSAURUS, HELD OUT. THE DECLINE OF THE STEGOSAURS AT THE SAME TIME AS THE EVOLUTION OF THE TYRANNOSAURS, AND THE EXTINCTION OF THE STEGOSAURS EVERYWHERE THERE WHERE NEW CARNIVORES EVOLVING IS TOO MUCH OF A COINCIDENCE. THERE'S ALWAYS THE CHANCE THAT I'M WRONG, THAT THEY DIED OUT BECAUSE OF NEW PLANT LIFE (CONIFERS WHERE GETTING BIG IN THE EARLY CRETACIOUS, I KNOW!) OR WHATEVER, BUT I THINK THAT THE STEGOSAURS' MAIN REASON FOR EXTINCTION WAS THE ARRIVAL OF NEW SUPERPREDATORS, AGAINST WHICH STEGOSAURS WEREN'T SO EFFECTIVE. IF ANYONE ELSE WANTS TO EXPRESS THEIR OWN VIEWS AND OPINI! ONS, OR CORRECT ME OR ANYTHING, THEY ARE WELCOME.*"
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


DinoSol, T - Rex is undoubtedly great, but we can't be sure of the size Giganotosaurus reached, either!
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


Huh. Stan, you're safe from swarming, you got all Rex fans behind you now to back you up.

You know, anyone could do a story of a T - Rex getting impaled on a triceratops' horns, just they'd get attacked.

And if you're posting anything nasty in response to my post, John, or Leonard, I'm not gonna bother reading it, so don't bother wasting your time. I have the right to defend spino if I want to, and I'm not attacking anyone.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


Hey, DinoSol, I bet you're really excited! Not to mention Honkie Tong!

Hey this is quite exciting for me, too!

But I don't think it'll be too different from what we thought it would be like, you can make reasonably accurate predictions on what it would look like from the sternum, vertebrae, etc.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


Raptor Red, I bet you won't quite like my earlier post, I don't want to offend you or "raptors." Dromaesaurids still have formidable predators in their ranks, I still think that deinonychus antirrhopus and utahraptor ostrommaysorum hunted animals larger than themselves.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


I have more proof to support my theory, "most dromaesaurids where solitary, and hunted small mammals, not large dinosaurs."

We all know that dromaesaurids held their hands facing inwards, not ventrally, like they where shown in JP3, because of their carpal bones, and that half - moon shaped bone in their wrists, I'm not clear about the details, but we get the picture that they held their hands facing inwards.

Well, that's an adaption for grabbing and holding small mammals, not tearing other dinosaurs! Some people think that they jumped on other dinosaurs, held on with their hands, and kicked at it's side with their legs! But they'd need to have downwards facing hands to do that, and we know that they couldn't move their hands so that the claws faced downwards!

But, on the other hand, it's very conventient for grabbing small mammals or lizards, and holding them up to bite their little heads and kill them. The velociraptor chases the little mammal, it has long hands, (comparatively to body size;) and it reaches out with them, and brings it's inward facing hands, like claspers, on either side of the little mammal, moves it's hands inwards, grabs the mammal, stops, holds it up, bites it's furry little head. That's what it was adapted to do, and that's what it did.

Also, mammals and birds today that hunt lizards, mice and rats, and other small furry creatures, normally hunt alone. And dinosaurs are related to birds. Owls, hawks, servals, mountain cats, and almost all creatures that hunt small mammals hunt alone. It's sensible. Hunting in a pack is more beneficial to help bring down large prey animals, of the type that 1 kill is enough for a few days. But when you hunt small mammals, it's often better to hunt alone. In this case you can normally acheive the same result hunting alone as well as in a group, and you're not gonna want to share when you've made a kill. The only exception I can think of right now is the Harris Hawk, which hunts in groups to bring down cottontails and jackrabbits, which are fast, strong, and always have a bolt hole to hide down nearby. But they are quite large by small furry creature standards, and compared to the Harris Hawks.

I don't mean to offend any raptor fans, but the evidence speaks for itself.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 23, 2001


About Tyrannosaurus Rex with the newtons thing, just alittle thing, if you can break bones while biting a living creature to kill it, heck, you've got some jaws. Lets just say, T-Rex had really powerful jaws, and that nothing rivals the big dino with jaw power. I really believe that Tyrannosaurus Rex was really that great of a carnivore, and if not for the incindent in 65 million yrs, T-Rex would of kept on going to be even more successful until something even better than it came along to take its place.
The tyrannosaurid family was a dominant family, I believe that if we where to compare a successful mammal family to the tyrannosaurids, it would have to be the cats. Least, thats what I believe, cats in the mammalian evolution where the most successful animals, only creature surpassing cats was obviously, homo sapiens. So Tyrannosaurus Rex is a result of alot of evolution, mother nature tinkering with the theropods, then *alkazahm* came Tyrannosaurus Rex. I believe that even mother nature felt some guilt to make such a powerful predator, that she even weeped for the planteaters :P Tyrannosaurus Rex is undisputed king for the large bipedal dinosaur!

from ***DinoSol***, age 19, Green Bay, WI, USA; December 23, 2001


This is great news, especially for Tyrannosaurus Rex fans like me out there, it seems that recently in Montana's badlands near Bozeman, Horner, and a group of scientists have unearthed supposedly, the largest Tyrannosaurus Rex ever found. This T-Rex is estimated to be about 45 ft lng, if its accurate, would be bigger than Sue who is 41 ft lng. They also found a duck billed dinosaur that is almost equally as long as the T-Rex that they had excavated.
What is the most exciting part is its torso was found completely intact, which means that not only is the rib cage complete, but the fossils also included the gastralia, or belly ribs. They say that with this complete torso, we will be able to determine Tyrannosaurus Rex's true shape for the first time.
This is truly exciting for me, I also believe that if it is 45 ft lng, then it would rival that of Giganotosaurus in length, I don't really know Giganotosaurus's actual length, for so many sites with different fts, its confusing me.
Also, I believe Giganotosaurus is suppose to be from 43-47 ft lng, and if that is true, than T-Rex would be in its league as far as length goes. Either way, T-Rex is still the more Superpredator of the two no matter what. Lets hope that the scientist can quickly examine the specimen of the Rex and will be able to tell us soon of just how big this T-Rex really was, and how it truly looks like for the very first time!

from ***DinoSol***, age 19, Green Bay, WI, USA; December 23, 2001


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