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VOTE FOR YOUR FAVORITE DINOSAUR DINO TALK:
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The Test of Time
A Novel by I. MacPenn

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Dino Talk: A Dinosaur Forum: Sept. 21-25, 2001

As I stated in another post, since I cannot find it I'll have to redo it:
The Tyrannosaurus Rex had a speed of 45 miles per hour, their bite had venom simular to that of a Komodo Dragon mixed with a Ten-Stepper
and they hunted in a group called a pride, like lions if a new male took over the pride, he would kill and eat the cubs.

The Utahraptor has a max. speed of 80 miles per hour, they were smart as chimpanzees, they had groups called flocks.

The Apatosaurus has a max. speed of 11 miles per hourm they were as smart as modern birds, they had herds.
Sneaky preveiw of Dino Warz: Dinosaur Wrestling Confederation!:
Episode 5: Wrath Of The Raptors!:
Billy Macdraw: This week's fight is: Big Al the Allosaurus vs. Deinonychus-
Alpha Male Deinonychus: Ouch.
Billy: -Utahraptor, Eoraptor, Utahraptor, and Velociraptor!!!
I hope I'll catch up with modern time!

from Alpha Male Deinonychus, age 9, ?, ?, ?; September 25, 2001


Opps, sorry about that, here it is http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/jdp.htm
from ECTrex, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 25, 2001


Triceritops are cool! (and cute!!!!!!) We're going to look for dinosaur bones and fossils when we grow up!!
from Leah and Melanie H., age 10 & 8, Shakopee, Minnesota, U.S.; September 25, 2001


80 Mi/Hr??? That's way too high...
_Utahraptor_ probably couldn't run much faster than an ostrich, if that. Not even cheetah speed.

from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 25, 2001


Bring back the wrestling posts pppplllleeeeeaaaassssseeeeeeee :)
from Blake, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 25, 2001
Okay. JC


"By the way, have you seen the webpage of Journal of Dinosaur palentology? It has many interesting papers on T.rex"

Nope. Please post a link.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; September 25, 2001


Alpha Male Deinonychus:

What do you mean by "age" in your Dino Statis post?

"Tyrannosaurus imperator": Since nothing has been professionally published on this specimen (which is probably referrable to T., rex, not a new species), there isn't much accurate information on it. I'm certain that no one has analyized the speed of "T. Imperator".

The type species of Velociraptor and Deinonychus are V. mongoliensis and D. antirrhopus.

I doubt that Utahraptor ran 80 MPH. What's your evidence for that? All of your speed estimates seem a bit high.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; September 25, 2001


hay JC, have you ever played Deus Ex? The main characters name is JC Denton but everyone calls him JC.
from kyle, age 10, LA, California, USA! USA! USA! USA!; September 25, 2001
No, I haven't. JC


what did duckbills love.
from Romeo h, age 8, dallas, 74589, Texas; September 25, 2001


O.K., JC I can't find my post were I say that the Tyrannosaurus Rex had venom like a snake or Komodo Dragon- oh really my story wasn't copied- just a title simularity!

Dino Statis!:
Sorry me, the almightly Raptor did not put some posts up a while back- I got T-rex sickness!
TYRANNOSAURUS REX:
Height: 18 feet to 20 feet
Weight: 5 tons to 8
Ages: 4 - 69
Walking Speed: 10 MPH
Running Speed: 45 MPH!
Yes Robert .T. Bakker proved the T-rex ran that fast!

TYRANNOSAURUS IMPERATOR:
Height: 20 to 25 feet
Weight: 8 to 9 tons
Ages: 3 - 69
Walking Speed: 10 MPH
Running Speed: 40 MPH
(TAKE THAT DARIUS!)

VELOCIRAPTOR -?-
Height: 2- 4 feet
Weight: 95- 150
Ages: 18 - 80 (human lifespan also!)
Walking Speed: 15 MPH
Running Speed: 50 MPH

DEINONYCHUS -?-
Height: 3 to 5 feet
Weight 100 to 170
Ages: 5 - 20
Walking Speed: 25 MPH
Running Speed: 60 MPH

UTAHRAPTOR:
Height: 4 to 7 feet
Weight: 500 pounds 1 ton
Ages: 3 - 39
Walking Speed: 27 MPH
Running Speed: 70 - 80 MPH

And...
STEGOSAURUS:
Height: 5 - 10 feet
Weight: 2 - 3 tons
Ages: 2 - 10
Walking Speed: 4 MPH
Running Speed: 25 MPH
So Darius DROP DEAD! XXXXXX!

from Alpha Male Deinonychus, age 9, ?, ?, ?; September 25, 2001
I've put up all the posts that came in. If it's not online, send it again. JC


hi yall
from spaceman spiff, age 6, kaziod, planet x, mars; September 24, 2001


Thanks Honkie for the info on the animation program. By the way, have you seen the webpage of Journal of Dinosaur palentology? It has many interesting papers on T.rex
from ECTrex, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 24, 2001


I think the Tricerotops is a cool Dino Because Most of the plant eaters don't have very much defense but the Tricerotops does.
And I like the way it was named by how many horns it has.(Tri-Three)But does it ineract with the other dinos or is it agenst only the meat eaters?

from Janet.G, age 9, Mt.sterling, Kentucky, United States; September 24, 2001


Will SPINOSAURUS ever get popular as TYRANNOSAURUS REX starting today??? I hope SPINOSAURUS will get very popular as T-REX now.
from Dallas A, age 16, Omaha, Nebraska, United States; September 24, 2001


Anim8or is good too for 3d animation, but that's all it does.
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 24, 2001


Where'd the wrestling posts go?
from D.W., age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 24, 2001
They're still at the same URL, but I got soooooo tired of them. JC


"I'm a big fan of computer animation, and a hobbist as well. Honkie, if I may ask, what program did you use though? 3d Studio Max and Lightwave, the biggies with Amateurists don't have structural guides in place to ensure proper biomechanics, so if there is a economically feasible program (I have Lightwave myself, great for photorealistic results but isn't programmed to test for the safety limits of structual designs of locomotion in animals) that does I would love to hear about it! Or is this additional scripting to one of the existing programs?? Thanks in advance for your response"

I don't think you can buy it on the market, the program I used is actually something of a active CAD program using the 3DS Max (which I use for my CG graphics) engine developed by my school. In other words, it's a non-retail home-brewed plugin But if you are looking for commercial simulations that simulate physics-based animal movements, I think you can find a plugin for CAD, but I'm not sure.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 24, 2001


"Oh, and Honkie, good comeback!"

It wasn't a comeback, there was a misunderstanding and I was just clearing it up. I try not to be nasty to people even though they snap at me nowadays, rather, I prefer to make sure everybody is clear and has a clear understanding of what's going on before things go out the window. Darius took it that the study was mine because I left out the quotation marks to indicate I was quoting somebody, hardly his fault. I hope everybody can be nicer to each other after what happened on the 11th. Tiny differences of opinion should not be something that should cause great conflict, though I would like it if people justify their opinions, as everybody is here to learn anyway.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 24, 2001


Great pic Brad
from ECTrex, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 23, 2001


Alright Darius, we're all waiting for those facts of yours on why and how T. Rex ran with suspensory locomotion. Bring it on.

Oh, and Honkie, good comeback!
from Skeptic, age 13, Toronto, Ontario, Canada; September 23, 2001


My computer's been down a little while. What the heck is going on here?
from Sauron, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 23, 2001


This T. rex topic has completely taken over Dino Talk, so: Shuvosaurus, Shuvosaurus, Shuvosaurus! What is it related to? Is it synonymous with Gorjirasaurus? What does it eat? Do you like my new drawing of it? :)
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; September 23, 2001


raptors ROCK!!!!
from azraptor_2000, age 12, glendale, arizona, U.S.A.; September 23, 2001


T-Rex vrs. Spinosaurus...no contest.The most powerful jaws of any terresrial animal that ever lived vrs. a fish-eater.No dinosaur would dare to challenge T-Rex,even if they did live during the same time period.With his "Komodo-dragon"serrations which grows deadly bacteria, The odor of T-Rex would scream out DEATH! Giganotosaurus, Charcarodontosaurus,or Megaraptor would all avoid T-Rex for fear of his deadly nastey mouth.
from Toby N, age 52, Fernandina Beach, Florida, U.S.A.; September 23, 2001


In the North woods of N.America,there are some very capable preditors such as the cougar,the lynx,the fox,and the wolf.The grizley bear, however,is more often a scavenger.He has a keen scense of smell and will locate a kill and then take it by force,even from a large pack of wolves.Tyrannosaurus Rex hunted in the same way.Even though he was a scavenger,he was never-the-less KING of his turf.And,like the grizley,T-Rex was very capable of killing.I agree that such a heavy piped was a walker-( not a runner )-I do not agree that his little arms made him vulnerable to falls.There were once large flightless birds who were capable predators.I believe that T-Rex was a scavenger who hunted dead meat,yet who loved a good fight.His teeth were serrated like those of the Komodo dragon,to hold dead tissue and grow deadly bacteria.His bite was powerful and also deadly poisonous.This would also give him a strong odor,making it still more difficult to hunt.T-Rex was a slow walker with a strong odor...but a very capable scavenger.All said and done,Tyrannosaurus Rex is still King of the Dinosaurs.
from Toby N, age 52, Fernandina Beach, Florida, U.S.A.; September 23, 2001


"But in case you are wondering, I did produce my own animation models to double check what she was doing." Now this has peaked my interest, since I'm a big fan of computer animation, and a hobbist as well. Honkie, if I may ask, what program did you use though? 3d Studio Max and Lightwave, the biggies with Amateurists don't have structural guides in place to ensure proper biomechanics, so if there is a economically feasible program (I have Lightwave myself, great for photorealistic results but isn't programmed to test for the safety limits of structual designs of locomotion in animals) that does I would love to hear about it! Or is this additional scripting to one of the existing programs?? Thanks in advance for your response
from ECTrex, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 23, 2001


-A disgrunted member of the audience.

I'm not really a big dino fan until a lously movie called JP3, and I don't really care about whathisname T.Rex, but I have been following this debate for some time now and can tell you that somebody called Darius here has to get off his high horse.

I mean, this person's behaviour nauseates the bystander reading this debate. For goodness sake, nobody gives two hoots about IF you are believing in whatever you are believing in (some mumbo jumbo about two feet off the ground), people want to know WHY you believe in what you believe. Nobody really cares about you, they just care about why you hold that opinion, seesh, stop answering like some religious-secluded-in-the-mountain guru, whoes only answer is "Ommmmmm...you have not convinced me, I hold my belief...Ommmmmm..." Who really cares about what you believe in? They just want to know WHY you do so and so they can judge your opinion for themselves, they don't need you to keep saying "You have not convinced me, you have not convinced me." Common...seesh...get off your high horse...

If you are too lazy or proud or have no desire to explain why you think T.Rex could fly with both feet off the ground or whatever, you could at least show the common courtesy and withdraw from this debate, rather than go on an on about how strong your faith is and how devoted you are the the cause, go fly a airliner into a building for all I care. This is a debate, hello? D.E.B.A.T.E, you have to present your point of view, nobody cares if you hold that point of view, they are only interested in what are your reasons. Look at that Horner loser, he just keeps going on an on about how his opinions are not changed, who cares? Nobody man, they juz wanna see the facts for themselves and find out. Maybe if you have good reasons to believe in whatever you believe in, I'm sure the dudes on the other side would conceed too, but you have not done that so far. What you have done so far is to do the first-grader equivalent of bursting into tears, sticking your fingers into your earsand singing "I cannot hear you, I cannot hear you, you are wrong and I am right" sorry, I don't think you are like that but that's the impression you are giving. In where I live, we have one word to call these people, and that's "Stuck up". If our foreign policy was so stuck up, it would almost be understandable why people get dissed enough to drive our planes into our buildings. Thank goodness its not.

And for goodness sake, dispense with all the character assasinations, forging alliances, calling people nice and such. Nobody cares if you think Honkie is nice or if you like him, please stop the politics and get down to the science and the facts. Everybody is sick of your behaviour in this matter. I'm not saying you are wrong or you are right, and frankly, I don't care. All I want to see is an actual scientific debate dealing with facts, not politics going on in here, hello? I'd like to slap some sense into you but dung splatters.

Hmph...
from Marty M., age ., Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA; September 23, 2001


It was so cool when Spinosaurus killed Tyrannosaurus Rex in JP///! Spinosaurus was like the main charactor. I'm studying dinosaurs in school. I just got into reading this dinosaur talk page. Hokie Tong, your so cool!
from Rich P, age 8, ?, ?, ?; September 23, 2001


"Hmm...are you sure this was YOUR study Honkie? It seems like I've read this before...this looks awfully familiar to Dr. Nancy Nicholson's arguments at: "

Now I see the problem you are not falting my entire argument but rather the Nicholson part in my latest post. You see, I forgot to insert the quotation marks when I quoted Nicholson, accidentally causing you to see it as if I had done the study. But your URL seems to be indicating a different version of her study though. Your version lacks mention of the arctometatarsalian condition and seems to be structured more towards a horse-rider centric audience. My version stems from an online dino magazine and it's apparent that she, or perhaps the person who co-wrote the article added in some terms to make it better understood to a dinosaur-centric audience (at least, that's my theory behind the differing versions). I hope this clears up any confusion. But frankly, I'd wish you'd stop jumping into conclusions. In any case, I stand by the article (and a couple of other sources). Perhaps it would benefit you to see my entire term report (yes, this is my study) on Tyrannosaurus locomotion to understand what is going on... just don't pass this up as your homework or something:

Ka Fong Fransis Ong Su Ka,
P203994
Class 1B24,

Jan 25, 2001

Objective: The student must employ resources and evidence and make a balanced and scientific conclusion into the topic. Computer animation using the IK engine must be included to prove the biomechanical model derived in the conclusion. Marks will be awarded for an accurate and detailed model.

The biomechanical implications of forces in Tyrannosaurus rex movement, a report on the probable locomotion method of large late Cretaceous Theropoda.

The speed and agility of dinosaurs is still a contentious issue, particularly when it comes to extremely large dinosaurs. Speed and agility is relatively simple to determine with the smaller members of dinosaurian by extrapolating from modern day animals similar to their size, but the speed and agility estimation in the larger species is much harder to estimate, for no good example exists today to extrapolate from. This study focuses mainly on the movement of Tyrannosaurus rex, and employs biomechanical models to model the most likely locomotion mode for this animal.

The actual speed of Tyrannosaurus rex itself has been one of the most contentious and hotly-debated in paleontological history, possibly because the speed of Tyrannosaurus would play a pivotal role in determining if it was a hunter or a scavenger, a topic that has been debated even more hotly until recently, where the discovery of healed-over tail vertebrae of an Edmontosaurus that escaped attack from a Tyrannosaurus settled it mostly. However, the exact speed of Tyrannosaurus remains extremely contentious.

In determining the exact nature of a how Tyrannosaurus moved, certain aspects and approaches have to be watched out and compensated for based on the actual physical abilities of the animal. For example, one hardly thinks a Tyrannosaurus could have moved on all fours! The aspects and approaches that had to be watched out for, based on biomechanical justification are explained below:

Over simplistic extrapolation: It wouldn't be sensible to simply extrapolate the speed of the animal going by simple size. Biologists have long recognized that very large animals are more limited in their athletic abilities compared to their smaller relatives. However in larger animals like Tyrannosaurus, this becomes even more crucial. As of such, the movement mode of Tyrannosaurus could have still brought the same dividends in speed, but the method, or way in which he done in would have been quite different.

Lack of good living models: The largest closest land-based animal for us to get a handle on how extremely large animals responded to the forces acted on them as they move is the elephant. But an elephant is hardly an appropriate model for Tyrannosaurus, as one can tell that they both moved in very different ways. On the other hand, though ostriches and running birds provide a closer look into the mechanics of Tyrannosaur movement, they ignore the much larger forces that applied to a much bigger animal like Tyrannosaurus. Extrapolation and observation from modern animals goes about as far, most of the experimenting on Tyrannosaurus movement would be straight from the drawing board, based on biomechanical models.

Unique locomotion method: It's entirely possible that Tyrannosaurus moved in a way that has no good modern equivalent. This possibility must be accounted for and discovered in the biomechanical models used to determine Tyrannosaurus speed or movement mode.

As one can see, determining Tyrannosaurus speed is no simple matter. To start off in determining how Tyrannosaurus rex could have moved, one has to start off with the known facts about its locomotion; they are gathered as of below:

1. Although Tyrannosaurus shared a great deal of locomotion similarities to birds living today, there are significant differences in the position of the big toe, foot posture and hind limb movement. However, one can expect that Tyrannosaurus would have moved much like a walking bird.

2. The morphological paradigm indicates Tyrannosaurus skeletal structure was similar to that of some modern cursors (animals that are good runners, like horses and ostriches): long legs, digitigrade stance, and other features. However, their locomotory features are not as specialized as those of many of the faster extant runners, as these animals had to deal with massive weights and forces, much more than our modern cursors, which would have more limited their cursorial abilities.

3. Tyrannosaurus lacked a flexible ribcage, which was sensible for an animal of its weight. Tyrannosaurus had a heavily reinforced, rigid ribcage that would have played a part in preventing it from achieving certain movement methods we are familiar with in other animals today, which include flexible spines and ribcages in their locomotion method. Tyrannosaurus was better adapted to move fast in a walking gait rather than in a running gait.

4. Speed specializations have been noted in Tyrannosaurus. Tom Holtz noted a curious condition in the foot of advanced theropods known as the arctometatarsalian pes of the metatarsus, a peculiar arrangement of the metatarsals in tyrannosaurids, ornithomimids and various other theropod dinosaurs from the late Cretaceous of Asia and North America. The biomechanical treatment of these structures indicated that Tyrannosaurus would have moved, proportionally, more energy-efficiency and faster than animals with primitive limbs missing the structure. Other specializations include extremely gracile limbs and a smaller, lighter foot.

Based on this, one assumes Tyrannosaurus is most likely a cursorial animal, though the exact method that Tyrannosaurus used to run has not been derived. Biomechanical implications do apply strongly to limiting how Tyrannosaurus could have moved. The limits are as follows:

1.) Bone strength factor. It's almost immediately apparent that Tyrannosaurus did not include severe impacts in its locomotion method. The strength factor of Tyrannosaurus and large theropod limb bones are noted to quite far below that of modern day gallopers and runners. As of such, it is most likely the locomotion method of Tyrannosaurus did employ avoid sudden high-rate loadings on the bone. This would have limited any suspensory capabilities, as would be explained later.

2.) Body loading factor. The rest of the body of Tyrannosaurus besides the limbs would also be subject to the forces derived from its locomotion method. According to scientists, running in a suspension could be impossible to perform for Tyrannosaurus without adversely affecting the other parts from the body.

Quote

"At the University of California, Berkeley, paleontologist John Hutchinson has begun building computer models of Tyrannosaurus rex's muscles and bones to rule out certain postures that, like a building with faulty architecture, simply wouldn't have stood the test of time.

"Biologists have long recognized that very large animals are more limited in their athletic abilities compared to their smaller relatives," says Hutchinson. "I suspect that this pattern holds for the largest extinct dinosaurs as well. My models estimate the mass of hindlimb muscles that would be needed for any dinosaur to support the stresses of running. In other words, would it even be possible to fit enough muscle onto the skeleton to prevent the animal from collapsing during running?"

Hutchinson concludes that the other areas of Tyrannosaurus anatomy would be severely affected by vertical acceleration affected by a up-and-down suspension mode of running, so much so he calculates for a Tyrannosaurus to run effectively in suspension, it must invoke so much vertical accelerations in its entire 6-ton frame that the frame itself would not be able to take the strain.

Other limits in Tyrannosaurus movement methods have also been noted, Dr Nancy Nicholson did apply biomechanics to Tyrannosaurus movement. But in her report, which is being quoted from an article on the Dinosaurs Online, also gives some insight into how Tyrannosaurus may have moved.

Quote
"The Great One, a tyrannosaur in a run, Gregory Paul estimates that the animal could run about as fast as a racehorse, which would be about 14 to 17 meters per second. His argument for a speedy carnosaur of the 6 to 12 ton persuasion is that its hind limb is similar to that of a horse and an ostrich, both of which are fast. In my biomechnical study, I used animation and simulation models to inspect the way these animals moved.
The animal I studied is based on an articulated skeleton of a 6 ton animal and is accurately proportioned. Its stride is 26 feet long without any suspension. Suspension for a 12,000 pound animal involves horrendous impacts beyond the strength factor of the Tyrannosaur limb, even for an inch or two off the ground, which is way below the elevation a Tyrannosaur would need to run in suspension (that is, with both limbs off the ground). In other words, it impossible for Tyrannosaurus to run with both feet off the ground.
However, Tyrannosaurus was certainly not slow. He was designed to move extremely fast without suspension. The animal moved in such a way that its digitigrade stride (runs on tip toe) gave it a "slingshot" effect slightly up and forward off the middle of the stance phase of the planted leg. That way, the animal stays level as the swing phase leg comes forward and is placed on the ground. As the animal sinks its mass onto the new leg, its ligaments, tendons and muscles store potential energy to release in the new stride just after the balance point of the stance phase. The powerful upper limb of the Tyrannosaur coupled with the arctometatarsalian condition and small foot of the Tyrannosaur, allowed it to swing its limbs much faster and more energy-efficently to repeat this process faster and as a result, increases its speed too, all without suspension.
Horses are also digitigrade runners. One major difference in the hind leg assembly of a horse (aside from the obvious single hoofed toe) is the top of the thighbone (femur). There is a projection off the top (greater trochanter) which gives the horse a mechanical advantage as the medial gluteal contracts to help torque the leg in the stance phase. If the hind leg pushes the horse forward 4 feet (1.22 meters) and there is 40% of 1100 pounds (440 lbs or 200 kg) being moved, then this is 1760 pound-force feet (2.39 kiloNewton meters).
The tyrannosaur has a very different thigh bone. Its top is elaborated into two tabs which increase its bearing surface for ligaments to strap it onto the pelvis, a dandy idea in a 6 ton animal. Thus it lacks one of the important adaptations of a horse for suspensory speed. R. MacNeill Alexander rates the tyrannosaur femur "strength indicator" at 9, and this is less than half of animals like Cape buffalo and horses. The torque computation for a tyrannosaur leg moving a 6 ton (5,454.5 kg) animal 25 feet (7.62 meters) is 300,000 pound-force feet (406.7 kiloNewton meters). It's hard to contemplate such an animal going suspensory in a run, much less not incurring immediate injury to its limbs! Especially at 25-30 miles per hour!
A horse differs from a Tyrannosaur because it has four limbs for locomotion combined with an extraordinarily elastic, responsive rib cage. The tyrannosaur's rib cage is a rigid box, reinforced by sternal ribs (not shown in the movie to show the legs more clearly). Thus the conversion of potential to kinetic energy of the stride has to be mostly in the achilles tendon, gastrocnemius muscle and gluteal muscle system. On balance, a tyrannosaur would probably not have been as fast as a race horse but would have been faster at a run than a human or an elephant, or just about all of its prey items."
This has proved extremely useful in determining how Tyrannosaurus could have indeed, moved. However, this proves almost out of the question, that moving in suspension would have been impossible for Tyrannosaurus to implement physically.

3.) Fall effects. Being extremely large, falling even while standing still would prove to have serious consequences towards Tyrannosaurus or any large animal for that matter. Naturally, this effect also carries on into movement. Paleontologist James Farlow and colleagues came up with a paper describing the possible effects of Tyrannosaurus falling during a run at high speed.

Quote (second source report)
" … Farlow and his coworkers went on to examine the running potential for this T. rex. First they analysed the strength of the leg bones with the help of computer-aided tomography (CT scans). The results, based on comparisons of their one T. rex with modern examples of both running animals and heavy animals, were inconclusive but suggest the legs of T. rex were considerably weaker than those of a White Rhino (Ceratotherium simum) which is the largest living animal that can gallop. This begs the question: were the legs of T. rex strong enough to allow it to move at speeds approaching a reasonable gallop?
Next, Farlow and fellow researchers turned their attention to some theoretical constraints on galloping for a 6,000kg T. rex . Specifically, they were interested in the forces that would be exerted on the body of such an animal if it were to fall while moving at speeds of 10 metres per second or the higher speed of 20 metres per second.
The forces could be broken into two components, a vertical force and a horizontal force. The vertical force would be the same regardless of the speed at which the animal was travelling. Because T. rex had puny arms that would not effectively break the fall, the forces were calculated as direct drops of the mass of the torso and the head from their respective heights. The torso, falling 1.46 metres, would experience an impact force of approximately 260,000 newtons and a deceleration of around 6g while the head, falling 3.46 metres would impact with a force of 99,000 newtons and a deceleration of 14g. This should have been enough to do considerable damage to the skull and rupture vital internal organs.
Things only get worse for T. rex when it starts moving and, the faster it moves, the worse it gets. The horizontal component of forces during an impact are more difficult to calculate and require such grizzly factors as the "skid distance" and a "friction coefficient". If the T. rex was running at 20 metres per second (72kmh) and skidded 3 metres on impact, the torso would experience a horizontal force of 300,000 newtons or 7g. The resulting net force of both the horizontal and vertical vectors would run out to 400,000 newtons or 9g for the torso and 110,000 newtons or 16g for the head. At 7g, a fighter pilot blacks out. At 16g his head would pop open.
Tyrannosaurus rex could avoid these lethal forces by not travelling at such high speeds but even at half that speed (10 metres per second or 36kmh) the risk of serious injury from a fall would still be very high. There is another benefit from going slower; the slower the animal travelled, the better the chance of being able to recover from a stumble before impacting with the ground.
So Farlow and his colleagues conclude that, even if T. rex could run at speeds of 72kmh (which seems unlikely from the strength of the leg bones), doing so could easily result in a lethal fall. They concluded that it was more likely for T. rex to occasionally reach the relatively low speed of around 10 metres per second (36kmh) but even then, only for short bursts over clear ground where the chances of a fall would be reduced…"
Despite the rather sarcastic, rhetorical tone of the mentioned report, Farlow does have a valid point in Tyrannosaurus (or any other large dinosaur for that matter) suffering dire consequences from a fall at high speed. However, latest studies into Tyrannosaurus movement has indicated that Tyrannosaurus avoided this problem altogether by moving in a different way.
Conclusion
Based on all the factors considered above, it is most likely that Tyrannosaurus was almost certainly capable of moving at speed. But the locomotion method for Tyrannosaurus derived from the biomechanical effects on the body and limbs indicates that suspensory locomotion was impossible for the animal, and rather, the animal moved without going into suspension. Given the considerably more gracile limbs and energy efficient adaptations noted by Holtz, Tyrannosaurus seemed to be adapted to a style of taking large steps fast, rather than going into suspension, more in the style of moving as noted in Nicholson model is the most plausible. With such a method, it is noted that Tyrannosaurus rex could move at a great rate, possibly even beyond the limit imposed by Farlow as the stresses induced in this mode of movement is less drastic and concentrated and dissipated vertically along the shaft of the limb and the shock absorbing material present within. It can also be noted that the main body of Tyrannosaurus underwent limited and non-drastic accelerations in its locomotion mode as it moved to avoid serious biological implications, as the animation model below shows.

Animation of Tyrannosaurus moving:

Other notes: By moving in non-suspension, the center of gravity of Tyrannosaurus is extremely stable, making a risk of a fall extremely low or negligible at all. It is entirely possible, based on this model; Tyrannosaurus would have been able to move at speeds beyond Farlow's limit and still retaining a great potential to avoid falling, or recover quickly in the matter its balance is disrupted.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 23, 2001


"Decide for yourself. Are Honkie's arguements his own, or modified versions of someone else's?"

Before you jump in with all guns blazing, I never claimed these arguments are my own, (in fact, the post you appear to have a serious problem with is actually based my report on the webpage's arguments) but rather, and I did say that I based my arguments strongly on a biomechnics webpage that was extremely helpful in coming out with my report but was unable to locate as of now (The webpage you qouted wasn't the one, but apparently the one I got my information from also used her report.). As a matter of fact, you have proved extremely helpful in helping me locate it, I'll note the URL. And I have not "hijacked" the post to twist it against whatever it meant, as you might have suggested, for it still claims that suspensory motion was impossible. Rather, I have also inserted other sources (mainly from Tom Holtz's arctometatarsalian notes) to complement the post as supporting evidence. I hope you understand. If you are asking if I base my belief that Tyrannosaurus could not run in suspension was based on this, I'd say certainly yes. But would you so kindly oblige me why you think her arguments are flawed (which I think are very convincing)?

But in case you are wondering, I did produce my own animation models to double check what she was doing.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


By the way, this is an awesome pic of a T.rex,
http://dinosauricon.com/images/tyrannosaurus_rex-ms.html

from ECTrex, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


Besides, I'm not entirely comfortable with ruling out behaviour simply because it's not observed in modern day animals. It's kinda like saying no large animal today is capable of moving on all fours normally, and later using only two for a burst of speed, a special form of locomotion dinosaurs like the Hardosaurs used, therefore Hardosaurs did not employ such behaviour.
Hmm, I'm not sure if that was slammed at me, but I'll address this, since it does sound like it was directed at me. True dinosaurs were extremely different at least structurally from what we know today, but in the end, they were animals, not fantastic creatures of myth. And while the point of no large animal using that locomotion is true, there are two examples of smaller animals that employee it(and many more larger animals that rear up on their haunches) so that hypothesis of locomotion is not out of the realm of possiblity by modern standards (at least I only know of two, two types of lizards, when I remember the names, I'll post them). And for Darius, I would be interested in reading Dr. Nancy Nicholoson's arguements but the link is not active, and the url not up, do you have an updated one to refer me to? Thanks in advance for any help in this matter.

from ECTrex, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


Where are the counter points?
from Thunderbird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


http://members.gotnet.net/maier/Dinosaurs/Tyrannosaurus.html

Wow. That's a great T. rex!
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; September 22, 2001


"Wanna know why? They hunt animals so much larger than them, and they have a totally different way of hunting than Tyrannosaur. They bite and back off, not to let their prey bleed to death, but let the bacteria in their saliva do their work. In a few weeks, the animal is dead from infection, not loss of blood. "

I don't know as much about Tyrannosaurus than some of the virtually-qualified paleontologists here, but I can tell that the apparent "facts" I have qouted above on Komodo dragons are certainly very wrong. Actually, the septic bite is used more of a backup measure in Komodo dragons, they actually bite their prey once or tiwce and then hang back to let it bleed out or fall to the ground, after which the Komodo would close in and finish it off. Unless the prey managed to escape, the septic bite would not play too much of a role in bringing down the prey. Though your understanding of a septic bite (or Komodo dragons) seems wanting, for you stated it tooks weeks to kill, in actual fact, the animal normally dies within seventy four hours. Cases of twenty four hours have been observed before, but certainly not weeks and weeks! Honkie does have a strong point going here.

"If this is all speculation, why are my views so wrong? I can draw sensible conclusions from bones just as much as you, seeing as it's all speculation."

>From what I've seen so far, you are not drawing sensible conclusions from the bones anywhere near as much as your opponents. There's a difference between good and bad speculation. A good speculation is based strongly on logic and fact, has null intergity, with a good emasure of evidence to support it. A bad speculation employs faulty arguments, poor logic, and has little evidence to support or treats the evidence extremely badly. As I've read through the posts here, I have to point out that a great deal of your arguments are I'm afraid, extremely weak compaired to the ones your opponents are employing. I'm afraid they're hardly sensible at all. In that case, even somebody who knows nothing about dinosaurs would point out immediately your points are extremely weak indeed. For example, your "sensible" arguments almost always start out on faulty facts and poor anthologies. It's apparent your knowledge on the modern animals you draw your agruments from are very wanting indeed. Almost every one of your arguments involves factual errors and general lack of know how on the matter itself, and one dosen't have to be a genius to know if you are starting on bad information, you'll end up with bad arguments. It's apparent that you would be better off learning from your opponents, rather than arguing them (particularly Honkie, are you suree he's not a paleontologist or biologist of some sort?), whom are all extremely well versed and almost certainly more knowledgable than you, not to mention they actually know how to debate, rather than blindly push their points forward with reckless disregard for science. I don't want to make it any clearer, but even I, who is an unbiased outsider to this debate can tell immediately that your case is very, very weak and certainly inferior to the case your opponents have built.
from Larson P., age 14, Ok. city, Ok., USA; September 22, 2001


http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/Biomechfizziks2.htm

Actually, I'd like to point out that I'd seen Dr. Nicholson's webpage long before I started posting here. I've discounted her arguements though, as they are flawed as I will point out in my upcoming post. I am also sad to say that I will now ignore Honkie, as I have seen that one of his arguements is not his own, a shame since I rather liked him (I've been reading posts here since the days of BBD). Good day.
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


">http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/Biomechfizziks2.html

Actually, I'd like to point out that I'd seen Dr. Nicholson's webpage long before I started posting here. I've discounted her arguements though, as they are flawed as I will point out in my upcoming post. I am also sad to say that I will now ignore Honkie, as I have seen that one of his arguements is not his own, a shame since I rather liked him (I've been reading posts here since the days of BBD). Good day.
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/Biomechfizziks2.html

Decide for yourself. Are Honkie's arguements his own, or modified versions of someone else's?
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


"Wake up Darius! Why hasn't anything convinced you yet! I mean, I use to think like yu but I'm convinved now too! This debate between you and skeptic has turned from being convincing one person to think otherwise to who's riht and who's wrong. Your wrong, but you're just to proud to admit that you've lost so you say "I'm still not convinced." Does everyone have to draw a picture. I mean, I think everyone should have their when thoughts but this is going too far. You're going to have t admit your wrong sooner or later. you realise that you're the one dragging on this debate by saying you're not convinced. No one can realy convince you, but they can prove you wrong, and that's what skeptic and honkie have done all along."

First off, how can I been proven wrong, when I haven't even presented the reasons I believe what I do? Up til now I have merely posted counter-statements, not really COUNTER-POINTS. I felt no need to explain myself, as I was solely satisified with keeping it to myself. Oh well. Second, I'm not dragging on the debate, as I merely state that I disagree with some of what's said here. I'm not trying to convince anyone. It is they who keep trying to convince ME of my WRONGNESS. I don't really care if anyone else believes me, I can just present my view, and if needed be explain myself as I will later. Thirdly, I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong. When I am thoroughly convinced that I am wrong, I will admit so. Thus far, I do not feel this way, and so, have not admitted such. Thank you.
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


"The Great One, a tyrannosaur in a run, Gregory Paul estimates that the animal could run about as fast as a racehorse, which would be about 14 to 17 meters per second. His argument for a speedy carnosaur of the 6 to 12 ton persuasion is that its hind limb is similar to that of a horse and an ostrich, both of which are fast. In my biomechnical study, I used animation and simulation models to inspect the way these animals moved.

The animal I studied is based on an articulated skeleton of a 6 ton animal and is accurately proportioned. Its stride is 26 feet long without any suspension. Suspension for a 12,000 pound animal involves horrendous impacts beyond the strength factor of the Tyrannosaur limb, even for an inch or two off the ground, which is way below the elevation a Tyrannosaur would need to run in suspension (that is, with both limbs off the ground). In other words, it impossible for Tyrannosaurus to run with both feet off the ground.

However, Tyrannosaurus was certainly not slow. He was designed to move extremely fast without suspension. The animal moved in such a way that its digitigrade stride (runs on tip toe) gave it a "slingshot" effect slightly up and forward off the middle of the stance phase of the planted leg. That way, the animal stays level as the swing phase leg comes forward and is placed on the ground. As the animal sinks its mass onto the new leg, its ligaments, tendons and muscles store potential energy to release in the new stride just after the balance point of the stance phase. The powerful upper limb of the Tyrannosaur coupled with the arctometatarsalian condition and small foot of the Tyrannosaur, allowed it to swing its limbs much faster and more energy-efficently to repeat this process faster and as a result, increases its speed too, all without suspension.

Horses are also digitigrade runners. One major difference in the hind leg assembly of a horse (aside from the obvious single hoofed toe) is the top of the thighbone (femur). There is a projection off the top (greater trochanter) which gives the horse a mechanical advantage as the medial gluteal contracts to help torque the leg in the stance phase. If the hind leg pushes the horse forward 4 feet (1.22 meters) and there is 40% of 1100 pounds (440 lbs or 200 kg) being moved, then this is 1760 pound-force feet (2.39 kiloNewton meters).

The tyrannosaur has a very different thigh bone. Its top is elaborated into two tabs which increase its bearing surface for ligaments to strap it onto the pelvis, a dandy idea in a 6 ton animal. Thus it lacks one of the important adaptations of a horse for suspensory speed. R. MacNeill Alexander rates the tyrannosaur femur "strength indicator" at 9, and this is less than half of animals like Cape buffalo and horses. The torque computation for a tyrannosaur leg moving a 6 ton (5,454.5 kg) animal 25 feet (7.62 meters) is 300,000 pound-force feet (406.7 kiloNewton meters). It's hard to contemplate such an animal going suspensory in a run, much less not incurring immediate injury to its limbs! Especially at 25-30 miles per hour!

A horse differs from a Tyrannosaur because it has four limbs for locomotion combined with an extraordinarily elastic, responsive rib cage. The tyrannosaur's rib cage is a rigid box, reinforced by sternal ribs (not shown in the movie to show the legs more clearly). Thus the conversion of potential to kinetic energy of the stride has to be mostly in the achilles tendon, gastrocnemius muscle and gluteal muscle system. On balance, a tyrannosaur would probably not have been as fast as a race horse but would have been faster at a run than a human or an elephant, or just about all of its prey items."

Hmm...are you sure this was YOUR study Honkie? It seems like I've read this before...this looks awfully familiar to Dr. Nancy Nicholoson's arguements at:

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/Biomechfizziks2.html
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


"Yes, I am incredibly interested in why your reasons for Tyrannosaurus being capable of running in suspension, for I have compelling reasons to believe this is physically impossible without harming the animal's health."

Okay...be patient though, I'm a slow typer, and I gotta alot to type now.
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


Tyrannosaur had a strong boned, well muscled neck because he had such a huge head.

"But I don't see why a Tyrannosaur couldn't have employed this tatic, given the massive amount of damage it could do with a single solid connection,"

I didn't say that he did.

"Komodo dragons and montior lizards show a bite and stand-off behaviour when it comes to hunting."

Wanna know why? They hunt animals so much larger than them, and they have a totally different way of hunting than Tyrannosaur. They bite and back off, not to let their prey bleed to death, but let the bacteria in their saliva do their work. In a few weeks, the animal is dead from infection, not loss of blood.

"So much about the behaviours of these animals cannot be determined from bones, so this is all speculation, really."

If this is all speculation, why are my views so wrong? I can draw sensible conclusions from bones just as much as you, seeing as it's all speculation.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


"Well, putting it that way, do you wish for me to elaborate on why I believe Tyrannosaurus rex could "run?" Just give me the word, and I'll happily oblige. The only reason why I haven't posted it thus far, is simply because I'm lazy =P."

Yes, I am incredibly interested in why your reasons for Tyrannosaurus being capable of running in suspension, for I have compelling reasons to believe this is physically impossible without harming the animal's health.

The main problem I do have with Tyrannosaurus running with both feet off the ground was simply because it was impossible to do. The main problem with Tyrannosaurus moving with both legs off the ground in suspension is the impacts and the way the force is applied not vertically along the shaft of the bone, generating a great due of torque at the wrong areas.

The Great One, a tyrannosaur in a run, Gregory Paul estimates that the animal could run about as fast as a racehorse, which would be about 14 to 17 meters per second. His argument for a speedy carnosaur of the 6 to 12 ton persuasion is that its hind limb is similar to that of a horse and an ostrich, both of which are fast. In my biomechnical study, I used animation and simulation models to inspect the way these animals moved.

The animal I studied is based on an articulated skeleton of a 6 ton animal and is accurately proportioned. Its stride is 26 feet long without any suspension. Suspension for a 12,000 pound animal involves horrendous impacts beyond the strength factor of the Tyrannosaur limb, even for an inch or two off the ground, which is way below the elevation a Tyrannosaur would need to run in suspension (that is, with both limbs off the ground). In other words, it impossible for Tyrannosaurus to run with both feet off the ground.

However, Tyrannosaurus was certainly not slow. He was designed to move extremely fast without suspension. The animal moved in such a way that its digitigrade stride (runs on tip toe) gave it a "slingshot" effect slightly up and forward off the middle of the stance phase of the planted leg. That way, the animal stays level as the swing phase leg comes forward and is placed on the ground. As the animal sinks its mass onto the new leg, its ligaments, tendons and muscles store potential energy to release in the new stride just after the balance point of the stance phase. The powerful upper limb of the Tyrannosaur coupled with the arctometatarsalian condition and small foot of the Tyrannosaur, allowed it to swing its limbs much faster and more energy-efficently to repeat this process faster and as a result, increases its speed too, all without suspension.

Horses are also digitigrade runners. One major difference in the hind leg assembly of a horse (aside from the obvious single hoofed toe) is the top of the thighbone (femur). There is a projection off the top (greater trochanter) which gives the horse a mechanical advantage as the medial gluteal contracts to help torque the leg in the stance phase. If the hind leg pushes the horse forward 4 feet (1.22 meters) and there is 40% of 1100 pounds (440 lbs or 200 kg) being moved, then this is 1760 pound-force feet (2.39 kiloNewton meters).

The tyrannosaur has a very different thigh bone. Its top is elaborated into two tabs which increase its bearing surface for ligaments to strap it onto the pelvis, a dandy idea in a 6 ton animal. Thus it lacks one of the important adaptations of a horse for suspensory speed. R. MacNeill Alexander rates the tyrannosaur femur "strength indicator" at 9, and this is less than half of animals like Cape buffalo and horses. The torque computation for a tyrannosaur leg moving a 6 ton (5,454.5 kg) animal 25 feet (7.62 meters) is 300,000 pound-force feet (406.7 kiloNewton meters). It's hard to contemplate such an animal going suspensory in a run, much less not incurring immediate injury to its limbs! Especially at 25-30 miles per hour!

A horse differs from a Tyrannosaur because it has four limbs for locomotion combined with an extraordinarily elastic, responsive rib cage. The tyrannosaur's rib cage is a rigid box, reinforced by sternal ribs (not shown in the movie to show the legs more clearly). Thus the conversion of potential to kinetic energy of the stride has to be mostly in the achilles tendon, gastrocnemius muscle and gluteal muscle system. On balance, a tyrannosaur would probably not have been as fast as a race horse but would have been faster at a run than a human or an elephant, or just about all of its prey items.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


I finally saw _Allosaurus: WWD Special_ (I bought the video), and I loved it! The salt lake scene with the diplodocids is great. The second part contains some really funny scenes, like Big Al playing soccer with some kids. But are they certain that "Big Al" is a male allosaur?
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; September 22, 2001


"So far no argument has been presented to me that has convinced me otherwise of my currently held belief."

Wake up Darius! Why hasn't anything convinced you yet! I mean, I use to think like yu but I'm convinved now too! This debate between you and skeptic has turned from being convincing one person to think otherwise to who's riht and who's wrong. Your wrong, but you're just to proud to admit that you've lost so you say "I'm still not convinced." Does everyone have to draw a picture. I mean, I think everyone should have their when thoughts but this is going too far. You're going to have t admit your wrong sooner or later. you realise that you're the one dragging on this debate by saying you're not convinced. No one can realy convince you, but they can prove you wrong, and that's what skeptic and honkie have done all along.
from Thunderbird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


"I think that you totally mis-interpreted my previous post. I imagined that the tyrannosaur "sprint walks" as you say, up to the triceratops but fails to deliver the attack, and it continued on it's forward course, as skeptic said it would already have been moving at top "sprintwalk" speed. As the tyrannosaurus does this, it moves past the angry triceratops, whom alters it's course, and into the lunges at the tyrannosaurs rear and brushes by. Ouch x2."

Oh, is that your image between a fight between a triceratops and a tyrannosaur gone bad? Well, it's simple then. What did you mean by "failed to deliver his attack"? Was it that T. Rex tried biting and missed, or was it that T. Rex didn't try biting? If you meant that T. Rex tried biting and missed, this is highly unlikely. He had good articulation of his muscular and powerful neck, and he certainly would have positioned himself close enough to the triceratops while moving to get a good bite on the back. If you meant that he didn't try biting, I find that just as unlikely. Let's keep in mind that he's hunting here. If he was too far away fron the triceratops at this point to bite (which probably wouldn't happen. T. Rex was stalking prey and had time to position himself properly), then the triceratops wouldn't have been able to get him with the horns when T. Rex passed him by). Another thing. After missing an attack, I think that the tyrannsosaur would have tried turning to the direction oposite of the triceratops than to run right infront of those powerful horns of the grazing herbivore. Anyway, many people would agree that had he been lucky enough to survive an attack, the triceratops might attempt to flee before resorting to it's horns, unless it was defnding it's young.

"Blah, blah, blah, 3.66 metres, blah, blah, 2.2 metres, blah, 45 degree angle. All this information just to describe what one person could type in six to eight sentences."

Wow, is this the best argument you can muster against my scenario? When I read this I was surprised how weak it was. This doesn't counter anything I said. I mean, Darius, come on, I expected soemthing better from you, possibly one of the best debaters on this board.

And no, I wasn't describing how much one could type in 6 to 8 sentences. I was describing why I thought you were wrong.

"Where is the stride figure coming from? and is this figure indicating "sprint walk" or galloping movement?"

The information was recovered from a trackway, and I located it in afew books and on the internet. The information was probably sprint walk, becasue galloping would have probably not have shown up on a trackway. What I did in my scenario, though, was have triceratops capable of one stride per second, which at 2.2 metres per stride would be how fast I think he could gallop when trying to scare off a tyrannosaur.

"And I'm still against yours:)"

Good for you. Nice to know that.

"So far no argument has been prescented by anyone that has convinced me other wise of my currently held beliefs."

I think Honkies right here. Honkie, you took the words right out of my mouth!

"I suppose running does increase the chances of tripping while turning, but from personal experience I've never tripped while turning."

yes, turning while running does increase the chances of tripping, even though it still won't happen automatically."
from Skeptic, age 13, Toronto, Ontario, Canada; September 22, 2001


It didn't matter if an Allosaurus was bigger than T-Rex, which they're not, T-Rex was super-advanced and could kill them all.
from John, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 22, 2001


"There comes to a point where one crosses the fine line between holding to ones beliefs because he knows he has a rational reason in it and holding to ones beliefs simply because it's nicer to see things that way."

Well, putting it that way, do you wish for me to elaborate on why I believe Tyrannosaurus rex could "run?" Just give me the word, and I'll happily oblige. The only reason why I haven't posted it thus far, is simply because I'm lazy =P.
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


"Not really, I just wanted to justify my agruments by putting out the calculations for everyone to see. Tyrannosaurus limbs could not resist the torque generated by running with both feet off the ground, as of such, he did not employ such a method of locomotion. He didn't run with both of his feet off the ground, not because it increased his chances of tripping, but simply because he was physically incapable of such a task."

Actually, I was not really directing that statement at you Honkie. I rather like you.
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


"Finally Allosaur was much smarter than T-Rex, it had to be most of the creatures it nted were much bigger then him."

You couldn't be further off the mark. Tyrannosaurids were extremely advanced dinosaurs, and all of them had extremely developed brains for a dinosaur. A Tyrannosaurus actually beats an Allosaurus in the area of neurology by more than a ratio of 1:2, and that's not counting the lobe used for smell, which was immenese. Tyrannosaurus would be in any case much, much smarter than your Allosaurus.

"Hey everyone, in light of the recent T-Rex discussions, I decided to conduct some observations. I have been observing a duck, and it doesn't seem to run with both feet off of the ground, despite having a longer shin bone. Instead, it seems to almost slide across the ground, barely lifting either foot. Yet and still, this is a very fast means of transportation. If this duck was blown up to the scale of a T-Rex, I don't think it would be too crazy to say that it could easily outrun me, and maybe achieve speeds anywhere from 20 MPH and up. (The fastest humans can only get up to 18 MPH.))"

I don't think a duck is a good model to base Tyrannosaur movement on at all, for your Tyrannosaur was certainyl far more gracile and nimble than your 6-ton duck! But if you want to put it that way, that Tyrannosaurus had no problem moving fast, that's correct.

"Where is this 2.2m stride figure for triceratops coming from? And is this figure indicating a walking, "sprintwalking," or galloping movement?"

I've no idea, but one thing for certain, we have good reason to suspect Triceratops could not gallop or even charge a Tyrannosaurus! Triceratops would have been able to change facing extremely fast though, making it extremely difficult to attack.

"Wow, its amazing to see how much information one spews out in order to convince another of how wrong his or her views are. Even down to the angle of attack! Amusing, but futile."

Not really, I just wanted to justify my agruments by putting out the calculations for everyone to see. Tyrannosaurus limbs could not resist the torque generated by running with both feet off the ground, as of such, he did not employ such a method of locomotion. He didn't run with both of his feet off the ground, not because it increased his chances of tripping, but simply because he was physically incapable of such a task.

"So far, no arguement presented by anyone has convinced me otherwise of my currently held beliefs."

There comes to a point where one crosses the fine line between holding to ones beliefs because he knows he has a rational reason in it and holding to ones beliefs simply because it's nicer to see things that way.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


"I am sorry to say that T-Rex is not very fast. It mostly scavenged meat..." I am sorry to say, Blake H., that many of the things you said are wrong. First of all, what evidence do you have that suggest that T-Rex was a scavenger. Have you not been reading all the debates on this site. T-Rex had such powerful killing tool in its jaws. It had a rod-like tail to balance it when it ran. And it could run fast. It could achieve near the top speed of an average human just by walking. There's much other evidence to how fast T-Rex was but all you need to do is look at the posts of other people. An Edmontosaurus bone was found broken by a T-Rex bite, and then healed. Would a dead Edmontosaurus heal? I'M not saying that T-Rex never scavenged, but I am saying that it hunted. T-Rex was more bird like than spinosaurus, because T-Rex was a Coelurosaur, and Spinosaurus was, well, a Spinosaur. Since T-Rex is so closely related to birds, this is more evidence that is was fast. DIMETRODON LIVE IN THE PERMIAN PERIOD, NOT THE TRIASSIC. It was not closely related to Spinosaurus. T-Rex was the smartest large carnivore, not Allosaurus. And NO! Allosaurus did not grow much bigger than T-rex. Individual Allosaurs may have grown bigger than T-Rex.(emphasis on the word MAY)Thank you.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


Hey everyone, in light of the recent T-Rex discussions, I decided to conduct some observations. I have been observing a duck, and it doesn't seem to run with both feet off of the ground, despite having a longer shin bone. Instead, it seems to almost slide across the ground, barely lifting either foot. Yet and still, this is a very fast means of transportation. If this duck was blown up to the scale of a T-Rex, I don't think it would be too crazy to say that it could easily outrun me, and maybe achieve speeds anywhere from 20 MPH and up. (The fastest humans can only get up to 18 MPH.))
from Usen, age 20, ?, ?, USA; September 21, 2001


Hey everyone, in light of the recent T-Rex discussions, I decided to conduct some observations. I have been observing a duck, and it doesn't seem to run with both feet off of the ground, despite having a longer shin bone. Instead, it seems to almost slide across the ground, barely lifting either foot. Yet and still, this is a very fast means of transportation. If this duck was blown up to the scale of a T-Rex, I don't think it would be too crazy to say that it could easily outrun me, and maybe achieve speeds anywhere from 20 MPH and up. (The fastest humans can only get up to 18 MPH.))
from Usen, age 20, ?, ?, USA; September 21, 2001


Hey everyone, in light of the recent T-Rex discussions, I decided to conduct some observations. I have been observing a duck, and it doesn't seem to run with both feet off of the ground, despite having a longer shin bone. Instead, it seems to almost slide across the ground, barely lifting either foot. Yet and still, this is a very fast means of transportation. If this duck was blown up to the scale of a T-Rex, I don't think it would be too crazy to say that it could easily outrun me, and maybe achieve speeds anywhere from 20 MPH and up. (The fastest humans can only get up to 18 MPH.))
from Usen, age 20, ?, ?, USA; September 21, 2001


"I'm still against your idea. "

And I'm still against yours =).
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


So far, no arguement presented by anyone has convinced me otherwise of my currently held beliefs.
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


"Turning while running with feet off the ground certainly had increased his chances of tripping."

I suppose running does increase the chances of tripping while turning, but from personal experience, I've never tripped while running and turning.
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


"I'm sorry but the only way that's possible is if the T. Rex slowed down. Here's why. Before attempting an attack, the T. Rex would be a relatively safe distance from the triceratops. Suddenly, he starts moving, gainy approximately 3.66 metres to 4.27 metres per stride (which is between 12-14 feet). He is quickly approaching the triceratops, mouth open, preparing for a lethal bite. He moves in, and is just afew metres short now when the triceratops notices him. The triceratops moves forward to attack the tyrannosaur. There are now two things which can happen here. 1. The triceratops tries chasing the tyrannosaur, but becasue he can only manage 2.2 metres per stride (which is a little over half the Tyrannosaurs stride), the Tyrannosaur easily gets away. 2. The second possiblity is that the triceratops lunges forward. This is the only way in which he has the faster acceleration than the tyrannosaur. Of course, this primary lunge would only be perhaps a little longer if not equal to the ceratopsians stride of 2.2 m. Now, the time the ceratopsian realised a tyrannosaur approaching, was perhaps when the tyrannosaur was approximately 10 metres away (any closer without the triceratops noticing and T. Rex would have gotten his bite in. Triceratops could have tried swiveling at that time, but T. Rex would have managed to articulate his neck in an appropriate manner to get at the ceratopsians back while moving to the side. He was surely capable of this due to his muscular and powerful neck). The ceratopsian starts to turn around but T. Rex changes course by 45 degrees (T. REx would not have been able to change course too abrutly. Lets say it took triceratops about perhaps three seconds to turn around and prepare to lunge. With an alteration of 45 degrees, the tyrannosaur, in those two seconds, would have been capable of making two strides, each worth an average of 3.965 metres. That means he's moved roughly 6m away from the triceratops before the lunge. Now let's say that the triceratops achieves about 2.3 m in the lunge in the first second. It would take two strides in two seconds to reach T. Rex from 6 metres away (it' only two strides when you factor in the front end of the triceratops including the horns). In those two seconds, though, T. Rex, at one stride per second, manages to gain 7.93 metres ahead of the point triceratops was at after two strait lunges. Had triceratops attempted to change his trajectory at, he'd only be able to change about 22.5 degrees without losing too much time before T. Rex got away. T. Rex notices triceratops quickly changing position and turns 22.5 degrees himself to avoid it. Now the two are almost parallel to one another. The Tyrannosaur, with the greater stride, would eventually get away."

Blah, blah, blah, 3.66 metres, blah, blah, 2.2 metres, blah, 45º angle, blah, blah. All that information just to describe what one could type in six to eight lines.

I think you totally misinterpreted my previous post. I imagined that the tyrannosaur "sprintwalks" as you say, up to the triceratops and but fails to deliver the attack, and it continued on its foward course, as Skeptic said it would already have been moving at top "sprintwalk" speed. As the tyrannosaur does this, it moves past the now angry triceratops, whom alters its course, and lunges into the tyrannosaur's rear as it brushes by. Ouch x2.

Where is this 2.2m stride figure for triceratops coming from? And is this figure indicating a walking, "sprintwalking," or galloping movement?
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


Wow, its amazing to see how much information one spews out in order to convince another of how wrong his or her views are. Even down to the angle of attack! Amusing, but futile.
from Darius, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


I am sorry to say but T-rex was not very fast. He mostly scavanged for meat, even though he would somtime eat injured dinosaurs. Spinosaur did not need his sail to survive becaus he was an advanced carnosaure and was more bird like than reptile you probably got him confused with dimetradon who lived during the Tirasic and was a primative reptile/mamal like. Spinosaure relly couldn't kill T-rex because he was a weaker carnovore. Most of the really good meat eaters were small bird-like dinosaurs like my favorite the velociraptor, witch was one of the most susecfull because it was both intelligent and had a milatary-like life style revolving around an alpha. Finally Allosaur was much smarter than T-Rex, it had to be most of the creatures it nted were much bigger then him.
from Blake H, age 13, Newton, Iowa, USA; September 21, 2001


I ABSOLUTLEY LOVE DINOSAURS I WANT TO SEE THEM EVERY DAY THEY ARE SO COOL AT FIRST I THOUGHT A T-REX WAS GOING TO BE A HUGE MONGO 30 FOOT DINOSAUR BUT WHEN I READ ABOUT IT IN ZOOM DINOSAURS I FOUND OUT I WAS WRONG REALLY WRONG I HOPE EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD LIKES DINOSAURS AND VISITS ZOOM DINOSAURS IT WILL TELL YOU EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT DINOSAURS AND EVEN ABOUT OTHER THINGS SO IF THERE IS ANYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT DINOSAURS OR ANYTHING MAKE SURE YOU GO TO ZOOM DINOSAURS THERE IS STUFF FOR ALL AGES EVEN MY LITTLE BROTHER FINDS STUFF TO DO ON THIS SITE AND I NEVER CAME FASINATED IN DINOSAURS UNTIL I HEARD ABOUT ZOOM DINOSUARS FROM A FRIEND NOW I TRY TO VISIT THIS SITE EVERY SINGLE DAY SO DO MY FRIENDS I HAVE THEM COME OVER AND GET ON THIS SITE I LOVE IT
ABBY A. AGE 10

from Abby A, age 10, Muncie, Indiana, United States; September 21, 2001


"Wow, you just agreed with me that T. Rex could run. Thank you. And I don't think that T. Rex would need to turn around he'd just slow down until the tyrannosaur ran ahead as I stated above."

I'm sorry, but no, I didn't mean to agree. By running I meant his fast walking style of movement, not moving with feet of the ground. I made that error becasue I was in a rush. I'm still against your idea.

"Yes, the T-Rex keeps moving, suddenly the triceratops lunges forward, right into the T. Rex's rump. Outch."

I'm sorry but the only way that's possible is if the T. Rex slowed down. Here's why. Before attempting an attack, the T. Rex would be a relatively safe distance from the triceratops. Suddenly, he starts moving, gainy approximately 3.66 metres to 4.27 metres per stride (which is between 12-14 feet). He is quickly approaching the triceratops, mouth open, preparing for a lethal bite. He moves in, and is just afew metres short now when the triceratops notices him. The triceratops moves forward to attack the tyrannosaur. There are now two things which can happen here. 1. The triceratops tries chasing the tyrannosaur, but becasue he can only manage 2.2 metres per stride (which is a little over half the Tyrannosaurs stride), the Tyrannosaur easily gets away. 2. The second possiblity is that the triceratops lunges forward. This is the only way in which he has the faster acceleration than the tyrannosaur. Of course, this primary lunge would only be perhaps a little longer if not equal to the ceratopsians stride of 2.2 m. Now, the time the ceratopsian realised a tyrannosaur approaching, was perhaps when the tyrannosaur was approximately 10 metres away (any closer without the triceratops noticing and T. Rex would have gotten his bite in. Triceratops could have tried swiveling at that time, but T. Rex would have managed to articulate his neck in an appropriate manner to get at the ceratopsians back while moving to the side. He was surely capable of this due to his muscular and powerful neck). The ceratopsian starts to turn around but T. Rex changes course by 45 degrees (T. REx would not have been able to change course too abrutly. Lets say it took triceratops about perhaps three seconds to turn around and prepare to lunge. With an alteration of 45 degrees, the tyrannosaur, in those two seconds, would have been capable of making two strides, each worth an average of 3.965 metres. That means he's moved roughly 6m away from the triceratops before the lunge. Now let's say that the triceratops achieves about 2.3 m in the lunge in the first second. It would take two strides in two seconds to reach T. Rex from 6 metres away (it' only two strides when you factor in the front end of the triceratops including the horns). In those two seconds, though, T. Rex, at one stride per second, manages to gain 7.93 metres ahead of the point triceratops was at after two strait lunges. Had triceratops attempted to change his trajectory at, he'd only be able to change about 22.5 degrees without losing too much time before T. Rex got away. T. Rex notices triceratops quickly changing position and turns 22.5 degrees himself to avoid it. Now the two are almost parallel to one another. The Tyrannosaur, with the greater stride, would eventually get away.

"Umm..I stil fail to see why as soon as the T-Rex started to jog that he would automatically trip."

As I said before, he wouldn't. But in your scenario where he's moving with feet off the ground to get at the triceratops, and the triceratops notices him, T. rex would have to make a turn so the ceratopsian doesn't jab him in the stomach. Turning while running with feet off the ground certainly had increased his chances of tripping. While he might get lucky and leave unscathed, there's still no reason to move that fast when he doesn't have to. Personally I wouldn't be taking risks like that when there's the possibiltiy that a 10ft. tall 30ft. long creature ramming it's three foot long horns into me. i'd rather stick to the safer way when I can still get away safely.
from Skeptic, age 13, Toronto, Ontario, Canada; September 21, 2001


"We are talking about Tyrannosaur, not today's predators. If the Tyrannosaur was so fierce, the competition would definitely be violent. They seem to show little reserve when fighting each other. There is also no evidence they hunted together, and had pecking orders if they did."

I don't have a problem with Tyrannosaurus being antisocially social. That meant, they were social animals that were very violent when it came to social affairs. Indeed, there have been evidence that T.rexes did band together in groups (in fact, we have more evidence for Tyrannosaurids going in packs then we do for raptors), and that didn't seem to stop them from bashing the heck out of one another, and in some cases, even killing and eating each other. Must be a very fierce and nasty pecking order they have running around. Mean hunters, mean and colourful social life... Kinda reminds me of the social order of parrie dogs, who live a life of urban violence in their parrie dog towns...
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


"I believe our little sea friends (sharks) would have something to say something about that. Do you see sharks taking a bite, then backing off to let the prey bleed to death? Why does everyone seem to think if an animal has that kind of teeth, it therefore must be an animal that takes one bite and backs off, bleeding its victim? Lions and other predators don't seem to show this behavior."

Komodo dragons and montior lizards show a bite and stand-off behaviour when it comes to hunting. But I don't see why a Tyrannosaur couldn't have employed this tatic, given the massive amount of damage it could do with a single solid connection, a wait-out tatic would be extremely useful (the prey isn't going to be ccapable of staging an escape or live for long, given the damage). Besides, I'm not entirely comfortable with ruling out behaviour simply because it's not observed in modern day animals. It's kinda like saying no large animal today is capable of moving on all fours normally, and later using only two for a burst of speed, a special form of locomotion dinosaurs like the Hardosaurs used, therefore Hardosaurs did not employ such behaviour.

I'm not entirely certain a Tyrannosaur needed to use the bite-and-wait tatic all the time. With dangerous prey like Triceratops, he well might have employed this tatic, but against his more common hardosaur prey, he was certainly capable of killing his prey almost immediately (or at least put them well on the way to his dinner plate) with a solid connection to almost anywhere on their bodies.

"Umm, I still fail to see why t-rex would suddenly trip as soon as it "jogged."

Hmm...T.rex would not have tripped when he jogged, but the leg bones of Tyrannosaurus were best designed to absorb vertical impacts along the shaft, which is associated with his rapid-walk running method (In fact, Tyrannosaurids have massive amounts of shock absorbing material to absorb vertical impacts). To the contray, if he did decide to run in a suspensory locomotion mode, not only would it have not made him any faster, it would have introduced a new force called torque. At 12,000-14,000 pounds or weight factored with gravitional acceleration times distance to obtain the torque acting on the leg bone diagonally when he was running with both feet off the ground, his leg would simply break under the forces. In that case, I assume he would trip then, but that's besides the point. Of course this applied to all the other large animals in his habitat too (even Triceratops). They all could not run with both (or four) feet off the ground. In any case, as I said, this is immaterial for Tyrannosaurus was more than fast enough to catch anything considered of food to them.

However, Triceratops would not have been able to charge or chase a Tyrannosaurus though. Closest research into Triceratops and co. indicate that their speed figures have been incredibly inflated (in part no thanks to Bakker). Their sprawing forelimbs would have prevented the necessary articulation and power to allow them to keep a rate, but would have allowed them to stand very firm and change facing extremely fast- good defense against a large predator. But they had no hope of ever catching or chasing down a Tyrannosaur on the hoof. It's likely even an Ankylosaurus could have edged out a Triceratops in a race.

"If the challenger uses its superior sprintwalk speed, the old rex would simply launch into a jog and bring down the upstart. Thus, to escape the older rex, the challenger would have to run as well."

Actually it would depend on who is the faster walker. Both parties would not have been able to "jog" and at their sizes, limb proportions, and biomechnical treatments of thier feet, jogging would not only have been impossible, but also afforded no advantage in speed at all.

"I certainly hope you aren't including 'raptors in that. They had longer arms, and were obviously more agile than Tyrannosaur."

Heh heh, I believe I was refering to the large predators above the three ton range.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


We are talking about Tyrannosaur, not today's predators. If the Tyrannosaur was so fierce, the competition would definitely be violent. They seem to show little reserve when fighting each other. There is also no evidence they hunted together, and had pecking orders if they did.

The Tyrannosaur is an animal Jason. Even Dr. Horner stated the rules of scavenging would apply to the Cretacious just as it does today. And every species when ever it comes together establishes a hierachy, even if its an imprompt one. Look at sharks, as a prime example. The 14 foot great white is king of the sea until it comes across 20 footer, and will back down immediately. And in any event, I think your purposely missing the point here, and its getting tiresome, truthfully. The whole point of it is there would be no need to wait and wait for an animal to be hunted by others, or die of natural causes when it had the capablity to take down its on prey. So much about the behaviours of these animals cannot be determined from bones, so this is all speculation, really. Now on to more interesting subject for me, do any of you know of more amateur artwork(preferablely 3d) of dinosaurs on the web? Its great to see the different artistic visions of these extinct animals from ECTrex, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 21, 2001


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