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Dino Talk Feb. 21-25 2002: A Dinosaur Forum


"It's pubic bone is 133 cm while that of Sue is 122 cm. Suggesting it is 9% longer, therefor 44.7 feet (13.6 m). Not nearly as much as those 50-60 foot exagerations."

That's because you're comparing it to Sue (which is fine with me, don't get me wrong) when some people compare it to G.carollinii which had a 118 cm pelvis. That would suggest that it is 15% larger than Giganotosaurus, therefore about 54 ft. long at maximum size, and if what you say about the 51 ft. Giganotosaurus is true, possibly up to 58 ft. In any case, it's extremly difficult to estimate the size of a dinosaur based on a Pelvis, so I think "T-Imperator" could have been anywhere from 44 to 58 ft. long.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 25, 2002


"So I don't think we can measure the potential bight force of an animal by measuring the size of it's skull."

Just my point.

What do you want to be when you grow up? (Everyone.)

I've wanted to be a field biologist since I was little but maybe I'll film wildlife for documentaries and increase people's awareness about the natural world and it's beauty and fragility, and destroy myths.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 25, 2002


Just in case anyone hasn't noticed, there's some trvia on the science forum.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 25, 2002


You've been to Costa Rica, Tom G.! Cool!
It's been a real adventure. We've been in a Police chace, milked cows, ridden horses, seen an erupting volcano, and seen all sorts of wildlife.
We've seen white nosed coatis, which swarmed our tour bus, and then we fed them fresh fruit. We've also seen many interesting birds, my favorite was the keel billed Toucan. We've seen Peckaries, Olingos, Capuchin monkeys, howler monkeys, american crocodiles, and much more.

I don't think Allosaurus head butted it's prey either, that was just something I had read that was supposed to be explaining why Allosaurus' skull could withstand such force. This has nothing to do with bite force. In general, it can be assumed that animals with a stronger bight would need bigger jaws. This isn't entirely false. But really, this isn't completely trustworthy because the muscles needed to power the jaws can be packed into fenestras and the neck. So I don't think we can measure the potential bight force of an animal by measuring the size of it's skull.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 23, 2002


"Tom G do you get your windscreen wipers wrecked by Keas and stuff like that?"

Thats only in the mountains in the south island.
from Tom G, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 22, 2002


"Hello everybody, I am here in Costa Rica, and the wildlife here is really fascinating. As I looked at all the posts from the time of my departure until now I see only a couple of posts. Was this site down or something. Forgive me, I do not type very well on these Costa Rican keyboards, which prevents me from using apostrophes, question marks, etc"

my sister went there on a year long exchange and I went there in 2000. Its really cool and I saw green turtles come up the beach and lay there eggs.
from Tom G, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 22, 2002


Tim what are you doing in Costa Rica? Tell me about it.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 22, 2002


Tom G do you get your windscreen wipers wrecked by Keas and stuff like that?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 22, 2002


What I really didn't get is how bite pressure is so strongly affected by skull size.

And I don't think that Allosaurus head-butted it's prey, it would need to bring it's head down and charge like a pachycephalosaurid and that would twist it's cervical vertebrae. So it would break it's neck. I say it opened it's maw, and charged at it's prey. It would collide into it's prey at full speed with it's mouth open at about 30 degrees. It's teeth would evicerate it's prey, and the allosaur would start eating.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 22, 2002


"Hello everybody, I am here in Costa Rica, and the wildlife here is really fascinating. As I looked at all the posts from the time of my departure until now I see only a couple of posts. Was this site down or something. Forgive me, I do not type very well on these Costa Rican keyboards, which prevents me from using apostrophes, question marks, etc.

*BEING AS YOU ARE IN COSTA RICA, I THINK YOU HAVE PRECIOUS LITTLE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT.*

On Archosaurs.
Da masta, now it is usually accepted that the Archosauria is divided into the Pseudosuchia and the Ornithosuchia. The Ornithosuchia consists of the ornithosuchidae and the Ornithodira. As you probably know, Ornithosuchus is a Ornithosuchid. The Ornithodira consists of the Dinosauria, the Pterosauria, and the Lagosuchians. The Pseudosuchia is basically Crocodylomorphs and all other non dinosaurian Archosaurs. Hope that at least did some good."

*THANKS FOR THAT. I KNEW MOST OF THE STUFF ABOUT THE ORNITHODIRA AND ALL THAT BUT YOU CLEARED THE MESS IN MY MIND, I NEEDED THOSE THOUGHTS ORGANISED.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 22, 2002


"Modern day crocs are real crocs, they are just in a group which name means false crocodile. Raiasuchus, I believe, is a Pseudosuchid, but still related to Ornithosuchus."

Right, thanks.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 22, 2002


""Tom G: unknown"

I havent been here because my finger got crushed in a farm bike accident. Has anybody else here read the book Raptor Red? I finished it not long ago and think its good."

Ow, it must have killed. I'm sorry.
I want to read Raptor Red; but I've only seen it once. Ages ago.

from da masta, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 22, 2002


T.M: I'd like to know where you found out about the larger Giganotosaurus.
Also, I don't understand what you mean by comparing the weight of the skulls of Carnivores to determine their jaw power. Allosauroids in general, specifically Allsosaurus, did not have the jaw power of Tyrannosaurids. Refer to Emily Rayfield's finite element analysis. Using the F.E.A.the people at Oxford university determined that Allosaurus had a bight about 4 times weaker than that of Tyrannosaurus, which could bight with about 13,400 N of force, and that might not turn out to be T.rex' maximum bight force. But anyway, that would give Allosaurus roughly 3,700 N of bight force. However, the same Analysis also determined that an Allosaurus skull could withstand great pressure. This of course, has nothing to do with bite force. This may indicate though that Allosaurus could have head butted it's prey.
As for Giganotosaurus, Rodolfo Coria determined that Giganotosaurus' teeth would "shatter if they ever bore down on bone" So it's irrelevant whether or not G.carollinii had a powerful bight or not. We have sufficient evidence of T.rex using bone crushing to kill it's prey. We have the Triceratops Ischium that was damaged severly by a T.rex bight, and that was what Erickson et al. used to determine the bight force of T.rex.

I strongly disagree with your idea of Giganotosaurus being more agile than T.rex, although your point about the size of the stomach is well taken. Just by comparing the gracility of the limbs, and taking into consideration that T.rex was lighter than Giganotosaurus, you can tell the faster, more agile animal.

But for alot of the points you made, I can't agree or disagree with, since I haven't heard of the supposed 51 ft., 9 ton Giganotosaurus.
Sorry for taking so much room, I just wanted to have my say.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 22, 2002


"Actually there are only two Giganotosaurus known."
Actually, there has been more than two found, the original one described by Coria and Salgado, and a family of them discovered in 1999.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 22, 2002


Hello everybody, I am here in Costa Rica, and the wildlife here is really fascinating. As I looked at all the posts from the time of my departure until now I see only a couple of posts. Was this site down or something. Forgive me, I do not type very well on these Costa Rican keyboards, which prevents me from using apostrophes, question marks, etc.

On Archosaurs.
Da masta, now it is usually accepted that the Archosauria is divided into the Pseudosuchia and the Ornithosuchia. The Ornithosuchia consists of the ornithosuchidae and the Ornithodira. As you probably know, Ornithosuchus is a Ornithosuchid. The Ornithodira consists of the Dinosauria, the Pterosauria, and the Lagosuchians. The Pseudosuchia is basically Crocodylomorphs and all other non dinosaurian Archosaurs. Hope that at least did some good.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 21, 2002


Modern day crocs are real crocs, they are just in a group which name means false crocodile. Raiasuchus, I believe, is a Pseudosuchid, but still related to Ornithosuchus.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 21, 2002


If you guys are going to read my new story "Dinosaur Attack" you might as well know about my made-up dinos. Unless you already do.(they all lived in the Cretaceous, so I won't be listing the periods)

Salidon(Sal eh don)*dromaeosaurid* Closest relative: Janzosiraptor

Janzosiraptor(Johns ohes eh raptor)*dromaeosaurid* Closest relative: Salidon

Nochismimus(No kiss mee mis)*ornithomimid* Closest relative: Gallimimus

Minimimus(mini mee mus, of course)*ornithomimid* Closest relative:Struthiomimus

Emelasaurus(Em eh lah saurus)*tyrannosaurid* Closest relative: Tyrannosaurus rex

Annosaura(ann oh saura)*ceratosaur* Closest relative: Dilophosaurus
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 21, 2002


Actually, there are onyl two known Giganotosaurus. The first type specimen is 47 feet (14.3 m) long and the second being 8% longer results in nearly 51 feet (15.5 m). The Stormer specimen of Spinosaurus was about 46 feet (14 m) long and the new Horner one is supposedly 55 feet at an 8 ton (7.3 tonnes) estimate. If we assume that the correct and respective weights all come from the same method and source, it gives us 6 tons (5.5 tonnes) for "Sue", 7 tons (6.4 tonnes) for the type of Giganotosaurus and 9.3 tons (8.5 tonnes) for the second _Giganotosaurus carolinii_ specimen. Bigger than the new Spino.

As for Allosaurus : You have to be fair, you're compairing it to T-Rex, but you forget that _A.fragilis_ skull was proportionnaly shorter at about 0.8 meters compaired to Sue's 1.53 metre skull. Therefor it's nearly four times less massive! (25%=2.0mass)

Here : http://dsc.discovery.com/news/dino/dinobite.html
It says : "Allosaurus' bite is roughly four times weaker than that of Tyrannosaurus or an alligator"
And : http://www.smh.com.au/icon/0102/24/news4.html
"While its bite force was weak and its teeth were slender and narrow,
the skull can withstand large impacts - up to six tons before the skull
breaks,"

If you want to be fair, you'll see the skull of _G.carolinii_ is 1.8 meters for the type and 1.95 meters for the second, making it MORE than twice as long as that of Allosaurus, therefor more than 4 times as massive. So if you want to be fair, your gonna have to assume _Giganotosaurus_ had a bite force as much as _T.REx_ at a single tooth, though the teeth are thiner in section.

here : http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1178000/1178814.stm
"It turned out that the Allosaurus skull was "overengineered" : it could withstand much higher forces than it would need to cope with simply biting and crunching bones."

Do NOT underestimate the power of Giganotosaurus.
Look at it this way : The pubic bone of the Giga type is 118 cm while that of Sue is 122 cm. Although the legs of T-rex are proportionaly longer (13% longer size relatively, but shorter in actual sizes), the pubic bone is 18% longer in relative to it's lenght. In other words, it's pubic bones requires a larger stomach, even in relation to the legs than Giganotosaurus. Therefor, the overgrown Allosaurid was more agile, if you look at it this way.

Here : http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/dino/faq/s-size/predator/

To put and END to the Ribgy Rex rumors : Rigby is NOT 50 feet. It's pubic bone is 133 cm while that of Sue is 122 cm. Suggesting it is 9% longer, therefor 44.7 feet (13.6 m). Not nearly as much as those 50-60 foot exagerations.
from T.M, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 21, 2002


Sue was about 41 to 42 ft.
Giganotosaurus was at least 45 ft. long by current estimates, and Spinosaurus could probably grow to over 55 feet.
Stromer's specimen was something like 45 to 50 ft. long and it's sarcal vertebrae weren't fused, indicating a younger individual. But Sue was more heavily built than most if not all Sspinosaurus, and might have weighed more than them.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 21, 2002


"The Allosaur skull reminds me of a war world one biplane. It's not nearly as strong as what we see in Tyranosaurus."

Exacty! Like WW1 biplanes allosaurs were very advanced and deadly at there time. I think Allosaurs didn't have a very strong bite because they didn't hunt like tyrannosaurs. They didn't crush bone like T Rex. it would be very hard even for T rex to crush a sauropod spine. I think they used their claws and jaws to make lots of wounds so that the dinosaur would die of blood loss or shock.
from Tom G, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 21, 2002


"Tom G: unknown"

I havent been here because my finger got crushed in a farm bike accident. Has anybody else here read the book Raptor Red? I finished it not long ago and think its good.
from Tom G, age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 21, 2002


Gianna,Tom G. : great stories. When I get back home I'll continue mine.
This will probably be my last chance to post before i I get home, which will be on Sunday. Until then, bye!

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 21, 2002


"but they are still beaten by T rex."
Yes, and thanks to Emily Rayfields finite element analysis, we know Allosauroids had weaker bights by a good margin.
As George Erickson said:"The Allosaur skull reminds me of a war world one biplane. It's not nearly as strong as what we see in Tyranosaurus."

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; February 21, 2002


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