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Dino Talk Mar. 9-12 2002: A Dinosaur Forum


"P.S. I'm putting my E-mail address this time. Call me paranoid if you want."

Absolutely not, everyone else is doing that too as far as I am aware!
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 12, 2002


"Yeah, I loved that trip. There aren't many Natural History Museums too close to us."

Yes well you live in the Los Altos Hills Tim M.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 12, 2002


"And Horner thinks T-Rex could barely do 15mph, right?"

Yep. It seems like Horner has it in for Tyrannosaurus. He probably likes Spinosaurus and when he found out that kids didn't like it or the raptors, ut T-rex, so he found "evidence" to trash tyrannosaurs in making them scavengers, so kids will turn to the "real predators of the Cretaceous" namely raptor, Spinosaurus, Giganotosaurus.....

Diloph thinks like me, he defends T-rex even though Dilophosaurus and da masta is about all he talks about.
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 12, 2002


"John Horner had nothing to do with this, I believe."

And Horner thinks T-Rex can barely do 15mph, right?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 12, 2002


"25-30 mph for T-rex
18-23 mph for Giga"

Seems reasonable.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 12, 2002


"What it amazing to me is how many Ornithischian groups Sereno established in 1986..."

Well, Sereno did a lot of work with Ornithischian dinosaurs.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 12, 2002


"Yes. A big difference is the presence of a tail. In a study done with x-ray images it was determined that a tail makes a difference in locomotion (they compared the walk of a Crocodile with that of an Emu)."

Absolutely. One point is that the tail plays an important role in balance, so T-Rex has is built in a very different way from an emu.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 12, 2002


Where there loads of people at the Lawrence Hall Exhibition?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 12, 2002


"I saw it too! I went to the Lawrence Hall on Feb. 28. It was really cool. I kiond of thought the Dromeaosaurus was small though. I liked the Triceratops head, because to me it was really big, and i liked the Dilophosaurus skeleton. it was Diloph's fave."

Yeah, I loved that trip. There aren't many Natural History Museums too close to us.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


"why would James farlow compare T-rex to emus? It's not like the emu evolved from t-rex."

While there's an obvious size difference,(gravity would take its toll, as da masta pointed out) but they are very similarly built, so Farlow based his estimate on his study on how Emus walked.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


"still about the lawrence Hall of science, I didn't see a Tarbosaurus, but I suppose that's the one which looks like a T-rex but was too small. The Albertosaurus-Thescelosaurus(sp?)was really cool, I thought the Albertosaurus was a T-rex but the sign said not. (I should've known anyway. T-rex's weren't that small)*THAT MUST HAVE BEEN PRETTY TRICKY SUSPENDING THE THESCELOSAUR IN THE RIGHT POSITION ETC. WHO HAS SEEN THE EXHIBIT WITH A FEMALE BAROSAURUS REARING UP TO PROTECT HER BABY FROM AN ALLOSAUR? THAT ONE IS REALLY TALL, BUT THAT THAT DISPLAY HAS SOME CRITICS SAYING THAT THE BAROSAUR COULD NOT DO THAT. I CAN'T SEE ANY REASON SO FAR WHY IT SHOULDN'T. THE BAROSAUR WASN'T LIFTING IT'S _NECK_ UP, IT HAD IT'S WHOLE BODY REARED UP!*
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002

why would James farlow compare T-rex to emus? It's not like the emu evolved from t-rex. *I THINK THAT HE THOUGHT THERE WHERE SOME BASIC SIMILARITIES BETWEEN EMU AND TYRANNOSAUR LEGS, BUT I AGREE, PREDICTIONS LIKE THAT SHOULD NOT BE MADE BY COMPARING DINOSAURS TO MODERN DAY ANIMALS.*
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002"

from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


I just saw another article in a "Time For Kids" magazine that said T-rex could only reach 19 mph. And they acted like it was really fast or something. And my DWF won't be a skit this time. That's all I know for sure.

P.S. I'm putting my E-mail address this time. Call me paranoid if you want.
from Joe Bob B., age 11, Menlo Park, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


"DID YOU SEE "JOHN HORNER" ANYWHERE THERE?*."
[If Joe Bob is referring to Garcia and Hutchinson's study]
John Horner had nothing to do with this, I believe.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


"You ought to take into account actual leg size, (not comparative to body size,) and that giganotosaurus is a more lightly built animal than T-Rex. It also had very muscular legs, although I don't have access to anatomical diagrams of giganotosaurus.

20-25mph has to be a more reasonable estimate.

How about that?"

Well, they were more lightly built, but one could say the same thing for... hmmmm... me and my brother, for example. I'm more heavily built than he is but I still run faster because my legs are better adapted for running(and other reasons). And Giga is 2 tons heavier then T-rex. If you look at the legs of a Giga, you'll see that they're bigger then those of T-rex, not only in length but in "thickness". But even so, proportionally, T-rex has longer limbs. Also, it's more gracile than Giga. The pes of T-rex is much more elongate and gracile than that of its counterpart. Because of its large leg bones, Giga would need a fair amount of muscle to power its legs. That doesn't leave much for running. It's a bit easier for T-rex because it has lighter legs. But still, I agree my Giga speed estimate was a bit too slow.
Here's what I think:

25-30 mph for T-rex
18-23 mph for Giga

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


What it amazing to me is how many Ornithischian groups Sereno established in 1986...
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


"They are also anatomically speaking very different animals."

Yes. A big difference is the presence of a tail. In a study done with x-ray images it was determined that a tail makes a difference in locomotion (they compared the walk of a Crocodile with that of an Emu).
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


"I bet you tried loads of dates and things after my Thyreophora question."

You asked the perfect trivia question in that case. I could probably tell you the establishment dates of any Ornithischian group but the Thyreophora(well, before you told me).
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


"I didn't see a Tarbosaurus"

The dinosaur standing next to the Giganotosaurus was a Tarbosaurus, but it was a juvenile.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


"I saw it too! I went to the Lawrence Hall on Feb. 28.*AW, I FEEL SO LEFT OUT LIVING HERE. I WISH I COULD GO.* It was really cool. I kiond of thought the Dromeaosaurus was small though*WE'VE GOT THEM IN THE NATURAL HISTORY MUSEUM IN LONDON. FOUR OR FIVE LITTLE DROMIES. THEY REALLY DID SHOCK ME BY THEIR SIZE TOO.*. I liked the Triceratops head, because to me it was really big*WE'VE GOT DINOSAUR HEAD REPLICAS IN THE NH MUSEUM HERE TOO!*, and i liked the Dilophosaurus skeleton. it was Diloph's fave*REALLY?!... JEEZ I SHOULD TELL YOU GUYS MY NAME SOME TIME.......*.
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002

I went to the Lawrence Hall of Science(UC berkley) yesterday to check out their dinosaur exhibit. They had fully mounted skeletons of Herrerasaurus, Plateosaurus, Lystrosaurus, Yangchuanosaurus, Tarbosaurus(juvenile)*IN RUSSIA THERE ARE LOADS OF TARBOSAUR SKELETONS INCLUDING JUVENILES!*, Giganotosaurus(I spent a lot of time looking at this one), Dromaeosaurus, and an Albertosaurus with a Thescelosaurus in its mouth. It was really fun.*I WISH I COULD BE THERE.*"
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


""And Tim says he has evidence that it is not all scavenger. (can you tell me Tim?)"

That would be a very long post. Maybe when I have some more time."

Gianna my post about ectothermic T-Rex should give you one reason!

What's more T-Rex has very good adaptations for hunting. What would it need adaptations for hunting for if it was a scavenger?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


Unlikely, but cool."

Did you know that the Lyophis snake actually eats poison dart frogs, including phyllobates terribilis?

It's really cool, it has no fangs but it has really good camouflage, and it's belly is ocellated red and black.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


"so that meant Giga couldn't either because it's heavier and it hunted sauropods."
By using the same study as was done on T-rex, and keeping in mind that Giga's legs were heavier, shorter, and less gracile then those of T-rex, I'd expect Giga to be able to run no faster than 15-18 mph maximum."

You ought to take into account actual leg size, (not comparative to body size,) and that giganotosaurus is a more lightly built animal than T-Rex. It also had very muscular legs, although I don't have access to anatomical diagrams of giganotosaurus.

20-25mph has to be a more reasonable estimate.

How about that?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


"Yes, I'm here, I'm working on a new DWF right now*YAY!*. I use a ton of other message boards, so I don't post that much*THESE ARE THE ONLY BOARDS I USE NOWADAYS. I HAVEN'T BEEN ON THE WWW.SCAN-COMMAND.COM ONE FOR AGES BECAUSE THE DISCUSSIONS THERE ARE AT A VERY SIMPLE LEVEL.*. And my birthday was in February, not March*D'OH, SORRY! I REMEMBER NOW.*. For the present topic, (T-rex speed, right?) I read something in a newspaper that said T-rex was very slow, and could only barely reach 25 mph. I doubt that, though*DID YOU SEE "JOHN HORNER" ANYWHERE THERE?*."
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 11, 2002


still about the lawrence Hall of science, I didn't see a Tarbosaurus, but I suppose that's the one which looks like a T-rex but was too small. The Albertosaurus-Thescelosaurus(sp?)was really cool, I thought the Albertosaurus was a T-rex but the sign said not. (I should've known anyway. T-rex's weren't that small)
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


why would James farlow compare T-rex to emus? It's not like the emu evolved from t-rex.
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


I saw it too! I went to the Lawrence Hall on Feb. 28. It was really cool. I kiond of thought the Dromeaosaurus was small though. I liked the Triceratops head, because to me it was really big, and i liked the Dilophosaurus skeleton. it was Diloph's fave.
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


I went to the Lawrence Hall of Science(UC berkley) yesterday to check out their dinosaur exhibit. They had fully mounted skeletons of Herrerasaurus, Plateosaurus, Lystrosaurus, Yangchuanosaurus, Tarbosaurus(juvenile), Giganotosaurus(I spent a lot of time looking at this one), Dromaeosaurus, and an Albertosaurus with a Thescelosaurus in its mouth. It was really fun.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"I am more surprised by the T - Rex. I thought it had lots of muscle scarring on the legs. Was its cnemial crest any big I wonder?"

Like I said, I don't think that study is 100% trustworthy. The quadruceps of T-rex were huge.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"And Tim says he has evidence that it is not all scavenger. (can you tell me Tim?)"

That would be a very long post. Maybe when I have some more time.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"UNLESS LEPTOCERATOPS WAS DEADLY POISONOUS"
Yeah, like a poison dart frog... Unlikely, but cool.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"so that meant Giga couldn't either because it's heavier and it hunted sauropods."
By using the same study as was done on T-rex, and keeping in mind that Giga's legs were heavier, shorter, and less gracile then those of T-rex, I'd expect Giga to be able to run no faster than 15-18 mph maximum.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"Giga couldn't either because it's heavier and it hunted sauropods."

Hmmm, I'm slightly cautious about that. Giganotosaurus hunting sauropods is by no means certain. Whoops, 10:30 and I've ran out of time!

BTW who knows a site which teaches you to draw dinosaurs from different views?!
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"Sereno established the Cerapoda, and the Marginocephalia in that year, and Gauthier defined the Deinonychosauria (hos definition was proven to be false later, but still...) which Colbert and Russell had coined in 1969. Wait, 1969 was also an important year... I guess they're all important years."

You know so much. I bet you tried loads of dates and things after my Thyreophora question. I only remembered it by accident!
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"People like Gianna, Joe Bob, and Tom G. talked the most when there were nasty favorite dinosaur argumants going on."

The post with points 1 and 2 about emus & rexes was mine JC in case I forgot the thing.

Not during my "war" with the swarm. Many people left until it quitened down. But I must say thank you for the support then.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"James Farlow estimated, by comparing T-rex to Emus, that T-rex had a top speed of 30-40 kmph (18-25 mph)."

Emus are not T-Rexes.

1) The proportion of leg size to body size is different.

2) The emu weighs 120 - 130lb, T-Rex weighs 6 and a half tonnes. Gravity is going to be taking its toll. They are also anatomically speaking very different animals.

So I do not think that Farlow's estimate is 100% accurate.

But I do agree with your speed estimate.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


[Groan]

I say we all put our Em@ils whenever we post.

That has to be a good idea, come on!

No more imposters. If only we had this idea in the days when the hard Rex fans terrorised both the forum and Joe Bob B.

At school people are always telling me to post as other people. Have they no honour? It may even be people from my school... grrr... I hope not. Certainly sounds like them. Nah. They'd probably swear.

A lot of this comes down to whether dinosaurs are reptiles (no they're not!) or more mammalian, or say, avian. (Absolutely yes. that has my approval.) Reptiles are more efficient at converting food into energy. A reptile can convert 50% of the energy in it's food into energy used in, say, growth or reproduction. A mammal can only convert 1.4% of this energy, which from a reptiles point of view is very wasteful. Combined with a slower metabolism, reptiles can go without food for much longer than mammals, which is clearly shown in, say, an Anaconda and a Lion. The Anaconda needs to eat only a few times a year to survive; it spends most of it's life either digesting or lying in wait. The Lion, on the other hand, (say it's a big male,) needs to eat on average at least 120lb of meat a week to stay in good condition.

Virtually everyone who knows at least the basics about dinosaurs; which is unfortunately more than can be said for most people, accepts that at least some dinosaurs where ectothermic. I beleive they where all ectothermic, (want to know more? just ask) but even if I am wrong, T-Rex can almost certainly be said to be an ectothermic animal. Unless you are Horner of course. If T-Rex was a reptile, then it could almost certainly be able to survive off scavenging stinking dino corpses, not needing to move very fast, not losing so much body heat, and converting energy so much more efficiently. However, T-Rex I think we all agree was avian, or at least ectothermic, so it would need to hunt and kill much more often to satisfy itself, since merely scavenging would not be enough.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


Yes, I'm here, I'm working on a new DWF right now. I use a ton of other message boards, so I don't post that much. And my birthday was in February, not March. For the present topic, (T-rex speed, right?) I read something in a newspaper that said T-rex was very slow, and could only barely reach 25 mph. I doubt that, though.
from Joe Bob B., age 11, Menlo Park, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"Third, Kenneth Carpenter discovered a Hadrosaur Caudal vertebrae with a healed over T-rex bight mark on it*THAT IS EXCELLENT EVIDENCE. A BONE CRUSHING BITE TO THE NECK IS UNLIKELY DURING FEEDING, IT WAS ALMOST CERTAINLY DONE TO KILL THE HADROSAUR.*.
Last but not least, as Brad said such a long time ago*I CAN'T HELP BUT WONDER WHAT HAPPENED TO BRAD. HAS HE SENT YOU ANY EM@ILS JC?*, even if T-rex couldn't hunt bigger animals, I doubt T-rex couldn't kill animals like Leptoceratops.*THERE'S NO REASON WHY IT SHOULDN'T, UNLESS LEPTOCERATOPS WAS DEADLY POISONOUS WHICH IS UNLIKELY. AND THAT WOULD ONLY STOP T-REX FROM EATING IT, NOT KILLING IT.*"

from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"1986 seems to have been an imporant year for Dinosaurian Phylogeny.
Sereno established the Cerapoda, and the Marginocephalia in that year, and Gauthier defined the Deinonychosauria (hos definition was proven to be false later, but still...) which Colbert and Russell had coined in 1969. Wait, 1969 was also an important year... I guess they're all important years."

With 1097 genera and God knows how many families, (it's very arguable. People still disagree about families you know) very many dates are probably important in Dinosaurian Phylogeny.
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"Those are the two main things, you can check dinosaur sites for more details."

I reckon there should be a dinosaur search engine which only gives you dinosaur sites. Thanks for the info. I wasn't too surprised about the dromaesaur, although it is an interesting find. I think many dinosaurs had feathers now, and many dinosaurs where small. A 1m dromaesaur. Obviously it must have eaten small mammals and lizards. And it still had a sickle claw. Helps my theory a lot.

I am more surprised by the T - Rex. I thought it had lots of muscle scarring on the legs. Was its cnemial crest any big I wonder?
from da masta, age ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"The fact that T-Rex was crowned the biggest theropod may stop due to the dicovery of Giganotosaurus and the Spinosaurids."

Termaine, "the Spinosaurids" have been known since 1915 when Barney (he is called Barney, right? Right?) Stromer found the first specimen in the Baharija formation in Egypt.

And Giganotosaurus has been known since 1995 so it isn't THAT new.

However there's an Indian theropod I beleive with a name which I'll be very impressed with anyone who can pronounce it, which I beleive is actually bigger than even Rigsby's "C-Rexes."

Anyways, welcome in!

Since there's only 6 regulars, (yes Joe Bob even though you haven't been here in what seems to me like... wait, you where on the science forum a few days ago... OK then, sorry) I'm sure we're all happy if there's a new arrival. So please don't go! And it's lots of Birthdays soon... Gianna, you are 16th March, right? And Tom G is 17th... Joe Bob is also in March... 21st, is it? Great.
from da masta, age 14, Birmingham, West Midlands, England; March 10, 2002


"Isn't T-rex 100% a scavenger?"

says Jack Horner, but I don't believe it. I think T-rex is both. After all, (da masta said) it wouldn't find enough food. And Tim says he has evidence that it is not all scavenger. (can you tell me Tim?)
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 10, 2002


"T-rex could run,or walk no more then 10 mph.Even Jack Horner said that,and he's a dino profesional.

(P.S. SORRY)
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 9, 2002"

Jack Horner is not the only Paleontologist around. Ironicly, I am watching the discovery channel's guide to T-rex as I'm typing, and Jack Horner just said
"There is a controversy going on about T-rex being a scavenger or a predator which I am one side of and just about everyone else in Paleontology is the other"
Many Paleontologists disagree with Horner (Tom Holtz, Phillipe Currie...) Anyway, in the same video, Currie defended the idea of T-rex being a hunter.
James Farlow estimated, by comparing T-rex to Emus, that T-rex had a top speed of 30-40 kmph (18-25 mph).
As I said before, even Garcia and Hutchinson's analysis (the one that suggested T-rex would need 85% of its muscle mass to run as fast as a speeding jeep) suggest a 25 mph top speed for Tyrannosaurus. Many Paleontologists estimate even higher speeds for T-rex. So my estimate would be 25-30 mph at sprinting speed.

I have loads of evidence for T-rex speed and predetation, but I don't want to get into another T-rex argument. And please use your own name if you are going to try and counter my points.
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?; March 9, 2002


I KNOW IT WASn'T YOU TIM! YOU JUST SAID T-REX'S TOP SPEED WAS PROBABLY 25-30 MPH, THEN YOU SAID 10 MPH! SOMEONE IS USING YOUR NAME!

(besides the fake one is probably the one who said 10 mph. tim isn't the type to change his mind THAT quick. if i were you at least i'd get to know the person before impersonating them.)
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 9, 2002


was that the real Tim M. who said T-rex could not run no more than 10 mph? because I don't believe that. Jack Horner is the one who said spinosaurus is the biggest dinosaur so I can't expect him to be right about the whole "T-rex is a scavenger" and t-rex could walk no more than 10 mph, so that meant Giga couldn't either because it's heavier and it hunted sauropods. maybe even Spinosaurus but spino is lighter.
from Gianna, age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 9, 2002


T-rex could run,or walk no more then 10 mph.Even Jack Horner said that,and he's a dino profesional.

(P.S. SORRY)
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 9, 2002


"Isn't T-rex 100% a scavenger?
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 9, 2002"

Once again, that wasn't me! I'm going to have to start putting my
E-mail. I seriously doubt T-rex was 100% a scavenger.
Even studies like the muscle mass one done by Garcia and Hutchinson(which I don't even think is completely trustworthy) suggest a top speed of 25 mph. I personally think 25-30 mph is reasonable.
Also with it's jaw power and teeth it could quickly kill anything it wanted to.
Third, Kenneth Carpenter discovered a Hadrosaur Caudal vertebrae with a healed over T-rex bight mark on it.
Last but not least, as Brad said such a long time ago, even if T-rex couldn't hunt bigger animals, I doubt T-rex couldn't kill animals like Leptoceratops.

from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 9, 2002


Isn't T-rex 100% a scavenger?
from Tim M., age ?, ?, ?, ?; March 9, 2002


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