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Dino Talk: A Dinosaur Forum

November 24-27 2000


The (I'm right and your wrong) is an example, not a statement.
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Honkie! How do you draw the neck of a T-Rex! Help!
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Uh, Leonard, sorry to spoil your party but using your line of reasoning, history proves that Tyrannosaurus and all other non-avian dinosaurs (again, if birds are dinosaurs) would be losers because they are all extinct. Just as F. DeNota said, all predators would be supremely adapted to ther current conditions and true success in history would be to survive and flourish for as long as possible.
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Ummm... Well, have we reached an agreement or is this thing going to continue till we die? Why do you all keep pouncing on BBD? He already conceded the points raised. I never said anything about raptors being the "Best Carnivore of All Time". I was merely speculating on their lifestyle because they are very interesting animals worth studying. Everything in nature is worth studying. BBD, cool down. Just ignore their apparent hostility and press forth debates with facts. I know it may seem as if alot of people are agaisnt you, but it's just that alot of people disagree with you. And all of you, I think you all should be less hostile (I'm right and your wrong) with your presentations.

Anyway, what F. DeNota said is true. All animals that ever appeared in the fossil record were sucessful. And she's right, the most sucessful dinosaurs are birds (if they are dinosaurs).

Another thing... this got me a night of little rest. I don't think that tyrannosaurs killed off the raptors. Extinction is too complex to attribute to a single event/cause. Look everywhere around you. Do you see lions causing hyenas to go extinct? Or eagles driving falcons to decreasing populations? Did Acrocanthosaurus drive Utahraptor to extinction? Did Allosaurs cause Ceratosaurs to go extinct? No. Simply because the two groups find ways to co-exist. There is a corelation between the extinction of the large raptors and apparent sucess of tyrannosaurs. This is the exact same reason why mammals became the dominant lifeform on this planet, why dinoaurs were dominant lifeform on this planet, why fishes are the dominant marine lifeforms, the list goes on.

Because the extinction of the large raptors left the eco-system without any dominant predator, the Tyrannosaurs filed in the ecological niche very well and suceeded, not allowing any other dominant predator to develope.
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Deinyochus v Tenontosaurus actually happened, but as we can see, two Deinyochus died in the attempt to kill it....not really a good sign for the supposed super killers I guess.
from Jon F, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Prehaps the word "raptor" has been lost out on us. The raptors were actually thieves, hardly the powerful predators we make them out to be, plundering nests and taking young.

I also am now convinced that the raptors were probally slower than a Tyrannosaur. In books, the raptors have always been described as being "built for speed" with light bones and such. But on closer examination, we find this not to be true as the raptors fail in the legs department. As FD said, Dromaeosaurs have just about the shortest and broadest tibiae and metatarsals of the nonavian theropods. Tyrannosaurids have the longest and most slender tibiae and metatarsals for any theropod in their size range. On top of that, tyrannosaurids have some nice shock-abosrbing potential in their feet. All other things being equal, a tyrannosaurid should be expected to cover more ground per unit time (aka,speed) than a dromaeosaurid of the same size.

This would make tyrannosaurids among the fastestest of its time for its size,and definitely faster than its prey.
This supports my original claims , that there is nothing to prove that
raptors were seemingly better (or more efficient) hunters or dinosaurs for that matter.

I believe there were no raptors of Tyrannosaur size for the simple reason that their body plan simply would not work if they were of Tyrannosaur size. If they keep that tibiae and metatarsals ratio, they'll be lucky to move at 5 miles per hour.

I suppose the raptors, having a primitive leg design, so in order to move fast, they had to lose weight, thus the light body. But this eventually spelled their doom as they lacked the size to attack big prey, which was becoming more common at that time. To make up for this, big raptors like Utahraptor had risen in the mid-late cretacious to hunt big prey. But the problems of their lightweight body plan and primitive legs still plauged them. Finally, the death blow came when the Tyrannosaurids arose with a advanced leg plan and a robust build as their advanced legs could efficently move the increased weight. For the raptors, this was the final straw. They were forced out of the place of the big game hunters and into the small prey arena. As we noticed, raptors specialising in big prey were all wiped out while those who could hunt small prey survived on till the end.

I guess this argument about Tyrannosaurus vs raptors is a pretty tedius and absurd one as history (aka. the fossil record) has aready declared Tyrannosaurus the winner. There is no need to go on.
from Leonard, age 12, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Deinyochus v Tenontosaurus could have happened. Even with being lightweight, Deinyochus was not all that much smaller than Tenontosaurus. Bye-Bye Tenontosaurus!!!!!
from russell p, age ****, seattle, wa, usa; November 27, 2000


Hello everybody, I have noticed that people here are matching me up against T.rex. Well, I will be frank, I will probally lose. T.rex could run aster than me and has quick reflexes. Will I was designed to hunt animals much smaller than myself, T.rex was design to kill and mince meat. Yup, my toe claw would be pretty useless against that. He would throw me out of the ring and made sure I never got up.

Don't get me wrong, I am good at hunting....but please don't match me up against that monster! Mommieeeeee!
from Utahraptor, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Come on, I'm sure your drawing will be good- I mean, look at my first drawing! It skank'

Anyway, now I am working on comic strips made from Carnivores. JC rejected my first one because it had too much gore and guns in it. Just a general guideline, this webpage is for kids.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


I kinda agree, my roosters also have those powerful sickle claws but they only use it for courtship. When they fight, they peck each other.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


The reason it dosen't happen to Brad is because he is not as "active aggresive" than you. He argues his case wisely and bases it on fact. As for you, I can see most of your raptor impressions were formed by Jurassic Park.
from Grace, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


13ft raptors? What rubbish! They will be mopped up by T.rex as he is faster and caould dance circles around them. BBD, we are not jumping on you, but you are fighting alone because nobody agrees with you. It's possible you are seriously mistaken. T.rex could do up to 50kph as we know while the fastest raptor managed a 45kph burst. T.rex was certainly more efficent.
from Wildcat, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Quick go to http://www.freevote.com/booth/dinosaurs an vote now. Anyway, this new piece of infomation will really kill BBD's post dead:

Tibula diameter:

Giganotosaurus 7cm

T.rex: 15 cm

Arm length:

Gigantosaurus : 54cm

T.rex 78 cm

Estimated strength

Giganotosaurus: 120lbs
T.rex: 1000lbs

from Lilian Tay, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Suchomimus tenerensis? I suppose it looks a bit like Spinosaurus, I'll work on it.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Maybe, maybe not Nicole. The problem with Megaraptor is that it was too heavy to leap, so it did need its claws for grappeling. I suspect that the claws were simply for display or courtship puropses.
from Levine, age 24, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Honkie Tong, sorry, I have yet to post some of my drawings. I was going to, but you guys are tons better than I am and I'm sort of ashamed.
I agree that the claw was used only for display, but I have another theory. The claw would most likely be used in the mating season. The males could have kicked up their claws and threatened each other and the one with the strongest body wins. I can't really explain this in worlds, so I'll sorta illustrate it as best I can.

from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Did the megarapter use its claw for hunting.
from Nicole B, age 8, georgetown, ontario, canada; November 27, 2000


ENOUGH OF THIS! Anyway, why am I the only posting the fanpic? Is it that nobody else has a scanner? I really hope thsi woun't just become a "Honkie only" page
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


In fact, every predator of which fossils are found undoubtedly was

very efficient in what it was doing for its living in its habitat.

>From the Cambrian anomalocarids, the Silurian eurypterids, the

Devonian arthrodires, the Carboniferous loxommatids, the Permian

gorgonopians, to the La Brea smilodons ... each time and place saw

its most efficient predators, extremely well suited for preying on

the creatures it had coevolved with. The very existence of a predator

in the fossil record proves its efficiency as such.

Or otherwise stated, each predator is the most efficient killer for

the particular animal which serves as its main dinner.

On the other hand, heavy specialization to preying on a particular

kind of animal (for example development of extreme canines and heavy

shoulder muscles, plus size increase in Smilodon, probably in

adaptation to predation of the Pleistocene megaherbivores) makes the

predator more dependent on its preferred prey and more

prone to extinction. More generalist carnivory (and even

omnivory) might be more efficient in the long run.

(efficiency in the sense of getting more offspring, surviving as a

species (or giving rise to new species by anagenesis or radiation)

for a longer time and in a broader geographical or ecological

range etc...)

To go back to where I started from, when I would be forced

to vote for the most efficient dinosaur predator (and thus forgetting

for a while what I just stated) I would choose the blackbird, the

thrush and the crow, rather than the dromaeosaur
from F. DeNota, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Every time I see something that says that dromeosaurs
"best" suited for hunting I can't help but question what this is based on. Is
it mostly assumption. Is it that they are seemingly "better suited for
speed",Or the arsenal of claws that it unleashed on its prey with such a fury.
why is it considered so much more efficient than a tyrrannosaur (especially
T.Rex). And what hard evidence is this based upon.
I think it possible that a Tyrannosaur may have have been more efficient (or
at least equal) in its pursuing and killing ability than a dromeosaur. Can
anyone support or argue this assumption.

F. DeNota
from F. DeNota, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Faster? Based on what?
based on the countless number of books I've seen that describe them as being
"built for speed"

Dromaeosaurs have just about the shortest and
> broadest tibiae and metatarsals of the nonavian theropods. Tyrannosaurids
> have the longest and most slender tibiae and metatarsals for any theropod in

>their size range. On top of that, tyrannosaurids have some nice

>shock-abosrbing potential in their feet. All other things being equal, a

>tyrannosaurid should be expected to cover more ground per unit time (aka,

>speed) than a dromaeosaurid of the same size. >>

this would make tyrannosaurids among the fastestest of its time for its size,
and definitely faster than its prey.
This supports my original claims , that there is nothing to prove that
Dromaeosaurs
were seemingly better (or more efficient) hunters.

from F. DeNota, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


For the last time MEGARAPTOR IS NOT A RAPTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
from firebird, age ?, Firebird's lair, Who wants to know?, Who wants to know?; November 27, 2000


A couple of misconceptions here. Lions and hyenas are always competitors
for the top predator slot. One usually kills, the other usually
scavenges
but depending on where you go in Africa, either species might fill
either
role. In some areas, the hyenas do most of the killing and the lions
scavenge. In other areas, the lions do most of the killing and the
hyenas
scavenge. In still other areas, both lions and hyenas kill, and both
will
scavenge given a chance. There's no known modern large carnivore that is
a
pure scavenger, yes, but on the other hand there's only one modern large
carnivore that will never scavenge, and that may be more a matter of
necessity than preference. No cheetah has ever been observed to scavenge
another animal's kill, but then cheetahs are not the bravest of cats, and
dead animals in Africa are usually covered by other scavengers within
minutes. Point is, evolving as a hunter doesn't exclude scavenging as a
secondary or even primary method of finding food.

Personally, I have trouble believing that anything as big as T. rex could
find enough food to keep itself going _exclusively_ by scavenging, unless
there were an _awful_ lot of dead dinosaurs around, due either to
frequent
disease or to another predator that had a habit of leaving partial
carcasses
in its wake. That's just an opinion, obviously, but it's all I've got
til
somebody produces better evidence one way or the other.

>One thing that I have noticed amongst many extant scavengers is that
>they usually have long narrow snouts/beaks to probe deep into
>a carcass (vultures, maribu storks, jackals). I can't see a Tyrannosaur
>using that great box of a head to pick a carcass clean. Perhaps we
>should be looking at species such as Baryonyx as the specialised
>scavengers?

There are surely a variety of possible dromaeosaur hunting scenarios,
> > depending somewhat on the size, speed, and body type of the prey item in
> > question, and whether stealth, endurance pursuit, or pack hunting figure
> > into your view. In our mammal-dominated world, big cats may finish off
> > their quarry with a precise bite, but the initial strike is often more a
> > matter of batting with the paws, snagging or hooking with the claws,
> > requiring only so much force as is needed to knock a running animal down,
> > or to drag a standing animal to the ground.
>
> If I recall correctly, the typical killing bite for a cat attacking big prey
>is
> a stranglehold. Not very high-precision, nor a very graceful sight to see a
> half-ton wildebeest with a 150-kilo lioness dangling from its throat and two
>or
> three others draped all over its flanks. It's an ugly, nasty, slow, dangerous
> way to kill a prey animal, but sometime or other cats got locked into that as
> their stereotyped kill tactic. Predators aren't always as graceful or well
> designed as we think they should be.
>
> > Imagine, if you will, a _Deinonychus_ pack leaping onto a _Tenontosaurus_
> > individual with all claws at once (each theropod pulling its neck back into
> > an s-curve during the initial strike). Perhaps the dromaeosaurs would then
> > quickly jockey for position until each secured a firm grasp of the
> > ornithopod with their forearms, freeing up the legs to facilitate raking
> > the ornithopod to ribbons.
>
> A reasonable scenario, IMVHO. Question, though: what happens if the dromies
> leap on board, and the tenontosaur then folds its own legs and rolls, hard and
> fast?
>
> -- Jon W.

You get tenontosaur remains associated with deinonychus remains.
Wait, that sounds familiar... :)

Anyway, since now that is has been made clear that the raptor didn't really use their claws, I guess this radically changes our view of them...they are actually wimps!
from Jon W, age 17, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Leonard: Megaraptor may have been a raptor (deinonychosaurian) or an avialan (bird). Some people think that Megaraptor=Unenlagia, and some people think that Megaraptor is a primitive deinonychosaurian, probably a proto-dromaeosaurid.
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


NICELY DONE JEFF! THE RAPTORS DID NOT USE THEIR TOE CLAWS AFTER ALL, GUESS THEY WERE NOT AS DEADILY AS I THOUGHT!
from Honky Tong, age 12, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Once again, T.rex would probally kill any raptor species as dead as a dead chicken, be it Utahraptor or Megaraptor. I think the raptors are over hyped without anybody questioning where their weaknesses are. T.rex would snatch them up from the ground or generally kill them with one bite.

I agree, raptors did not use their claws to fight or hunt. They were jsut there for display. OHHHHHHH! The pound for pound deadilness of the raptors just took another plunge.
from Grace(Lilian's sister), age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


I think Utaraptor was the most helpless of all the raptors. It was wayy to big to use its claws. I saw its claws during an exbition too. Nope, those were not slashers, they're displayers. Closer eximation of raptor claws revaeled that they were not made of a dense bone, but were porous and fragile under extreme stress. If the raptors tried to do anything remotely resembling an attack, they would have broken the claw. Their claws were display claws!

We haven't figured how these useless claws were used, but intention can be mistaken. We used to think those bony frills of Trikes were defence, well....the same thing is happening to the raptors now.

Anyway a raptor of rex size would never work. It's leg bone proportion were of a small animal, not a big animal. Scaled up, the raptor MIGHT just be able to craw along at 5 miles per hour. Sure, change the ratio to a more reasonable level but then again, it would be impossible for it to kick...awwwwwwwwwww...poor raptors.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Well, the next Old Blood will be late. BBD, Megaraptor is actually not a species of raptor. It belongs to a different genera.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Well I didn't want to get into this but I have to say this: ONCE AGAIN, MEGARAPTOR IS NOT A RAPTOR!
from Leonard, age 12, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Now how about the raptors? Those pack hunting, meat eating dinosaurs would have easily overpowerd a Tyrannosaur right, using their sickle claws? Well, bad news. New studies have shown that Raptors did not have very strong muscles in their toe claws. They could swing it yes, but not powerfully, meaning they could scratch, but not slash with it.

While we used to imagine the Mesozoic world as a landscape of sluggish swampdwellers, we now envision a world populated by a panoply of colorful, noisy, fast and cunning hot-blooded monsters. This is great for the Dinobiz, but does it make scientific sense? Did Dinosaurs operate under rules of physiology and evolutionary pressure substantially different from those of today? Did they develop markedly better solutions for dealing with their world than those that have evolved since? Let's look at the currently hot group, Dromaeosaurs, popularly known today as the Raptors. In movies, books and magazines these smallish theropods comprised the fastest and nastiest, and possibly smartest Dinosaurs ever. They were dressed to the nines in spikes and knives; cold-blooded homeothermic killers. While all members of this class had an impressive set of saw-edged teeth and formidably clawed forelimbs, it is the hypertrophied claws on the second toes of their hindlimbs that have transfixed our imagination. We are repeatedly told that these agile carnivores hunted in packs, slashing their large but lumbering prey to death in a series of back-foot blitzkriegs. Wait...does this really make sense? Did they really hunt in organized packs? Did they really use those curvaceous claws for slicing and dicing formidable foes into hors-d'ouvres sized snacks? I suspect it was more likely they rarely ate anything that couldn't have been nailed in a one-bite solo effort unless it was already dead. Heresy!!? Stop and consider this from an evolutionary standpoint. As Raptors were lightly built, they probably did rely on speed and agility. As they were bipedal, their back legs would have been essential to their survival. Almost any injury to such important structures would have been rapidly fatal to a creature relying on pursuit speed and kicking power. Want to hurt a back leg? Try to kick a large and angry herbivore that basically consists of thick skin over huge muscles. Ribs, pelvic bones, scutes, shields and flailing limbs would have made vital organs difficult targets. Aside from the likely humiliation of breaking a nail, they would have been at high risk for shattering a leg trying such tactics. Crippled dinosaurs didn't have a high likelihood of reproducing, leaving them losers in Darwin's evolutionary derby. Perhaps that is why they vanished by the mid-Cretaceous, giving way to the smash-mouth hunting tactics of the Tyrannosaurs. It is more likely that Raptors mostly used their razor-like teeth on smaller prey. If they did use claws, it was probably the impressive armament on their forelimbs which would have been much easier to control and less risky to survival if injured. So, what were those carpet cutters for? If there had to be a feeding function, consider other possibilities. They would have been useful for cutting through thick skin after their meal had been immobilized by other means. They could have been used to rip aprt termite nests and beehives, or to dig up whatever resembled prairie dog towns of their era. If they had a taste for escargot, the claws were perfectly shaped for extracting the delicate morsels from their spiral shells.

I'm certain that every reader who has put up with me this far is thinking about the famous Velociraptor versus Protoceratops fossil where both died locked in mortal combat, proving the function of the slashing claw. Yes, the poor Raptor was using its foot, but probably as a defensive weapon! After all, it was probably trying to raid a nest for a meal of one-bite babies when it was attacked by one of those angry herbivores alluded to above. The large slashing claw on the cassowary is a good example of such a weapon evolving purely for defensive purposes. These birds are incredibly dangerous when trapped in close quarters although they are more likely to run away than take chances with their valuable legs in a battle. It makes sense to risk an incapacitating injury only if the alternative is being eaten.

If you are uncomfortable with these magnificent structures solely serving a protective function, what could be a more likely use? Why, sex of course. Many of the most extravagant and bizarre structures in nature are primarily used to attract a mate or to intimidate rivals. A set of large claws could be very useful for displaying to a potential mate or for ritualized combat. Look at the modern rooster, possessing impressive and dangerous spurs, but hardly famed as a fierce hunter.

While difficult to prove either way, it is easier to imagine Raptors having the coordination required for mating displays than the control needed for accurately kicking an opponent in a life or death battle. Despite their reputation for having relatively large brains, it is unlikely that such complex coordination would have been possible. No other animal has developed that style of hunting since, even if birds grab smaller prey with their feet and many animals do use their feet for defensive functions. While on the subject of brain function, I have to add that the concept of Raptors hunting in organized packs inspires incredulity. No reptile, or bird for that matter possesses the social structure to accomplish that and it is doubtful that Dinosaurs with relatively small brain-to-body mass ratios could have pulled it off. Swarming on common prey is observed with many animals including crocodilians, large lizards and vultures, although it isn't truly cooperative social behavior.! ! ! ! Finding fossils showing a group of Deinonychus with one large herbivore certainly doesn't prove or even imply social structure any more than finding a collection of flies around a dead rat.

Little evidence of the raptors' seemingly formidible behaviour have been found, yet there is so much hype. Even many paleontologists got sucked into this lie.

The end is near for all raptor fans.

Oh yes, BBD. Megaraptor is not a raptor. How much do you really knwo about raptors anyway?
from Jeff Poling, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Before we jump on Bryan, we must realize that Oviraptor was probally, well, Oviraptorus. It probally stole eggs and got caught too. It was just the intatial fossil that was wrong.

One thing BBD, Megaraptor is not a raptor. Do not try to drag it in. It's like getting T.rex to fight a Giggy case.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


You know, I figured the bigger they are, the harder they fall. Utahraptor could not use his claws for the simple reason he could not leap as 1 ton of raptor coming down after a 8 foot jump will kill the animal. If you ask me, the claws of the raptors were probally used for display.

Anyway, mabye I should go in deeper about the teeth issue. The reason paleontologist believe that T.rex had a septic bite was because of the serrations on his teeth. These serrations were different from all other types of carnivore teeth except Komodo dragons. If you peer at a ordanary serration under a microscope, you will notice that it is actually a series of mini delta shapes, in effect turning the tooth into a saw, making cutting easier.

If you looked at a rex tooth under a microscope, you would realise that the serrations were cube shaped, hardly good for cutting flesh. This has puzzled scientist until they realized that komodo dragons also have the same thing. Those serrations weren't for cutting, they were for trapping meat and baterial. No, your point about trapped meat beign pulled out cannot stand. Ever have somethign trapped inbetween your teeth and you tried to pull it out by chewing? What rubbish ! What nonsense!

Anyway, your rapor attack strategy is also flawed. We know big carnivores like T.rex can reverse their heading in 2 seconds from fossil footprints. If your raptors are going to run circles around them, they are going to have to run the radius of the turn. They didn't hang back and slap with their toe claws BBD, the toe claws could not slash as DW had demostrated eariler. The either didn't use their claws for hunting or used it as a grappling device. A grappeling device haerdly irrates a rex who's used to recieving bites from other rexes.

And your big raptor theory is similary flawed. T.rex is actually a scaled up celouosaur, if a raptor is going to be the size of rex, it will be unable to even jump or kick. So it will be mopped in a few microseconds.
from Wildcat, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


"Homalocephale"

-ho-muh-luh-SEF-uh-lee

Its name means "Level Head" because it had a flat top to its skull. There were several bumps on the top of its head and a pattern of small pits. Most remains come from Mongolia and it was probably ably about 10 feet long. Homalocephale was one of the large family of "bone-head" dinosaurs that lived about 70 million years ago. They are thought to have descended from the family of Heterodontosaurus dinosaurs, which lived more than 110 million years earlier. Homalocephale was closely related to Pachycephalosaurus. Like other members of its family, Homalocephale had a very thick skull. This may have been used to attack others that triedto invade its territory, or it may have been used to play. Animals of today often butt heads in play. Homalocephale probably lived on high slopes and on t he sides of moutains. Most of its fossil remains have been washed down from the high places by fast-flowing streams. These animals walked on their back legs, using their tails as props when standi! ng.
from Bryan, age 11, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


"Altispinax"

-al-tuh-spy-nax
This unusual dinosaur lived over 120 million years ago. Fossil bones have been found in England, and it is likely that the animal roamed throughout Europe. Altispinax means "High Thorn", Its name comes from the large spines on its back. Each spine was four times longer than the individual back bones it was attached to. A skin probably covered the spines, giving the dinosaur a sail-like fan across its back. Altispinax was not as big as others in its family. With a length of about 25 feet it was not as big as Spinosaurus, which was 40 feet long. All members of this family were flesh eaters. They had sets of small,very sharp teeth. Like other flesh eaters, Altispinax had strong back legs and small, short arms. The sail, or back fin, probably helped the animal cool down in hot climates, Some scientists believe it may have beenused to frighten other animals. Altispinax lived in the Early Cretaceous in Northwest Europe. It also weighed 3 tons.

from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


The purpose of this as stated is to trade ideas and information, Rex defender, lilian, Levine and story guy, this is not a forum for petty insults(like calling someone childish) and idiot insults. There is no need for you to attempt to insult me by your remarks. If you spent more time attempting to learn and research your paleontology work, you certainly would be more rewarded mentally and emotionally than having weak unrewarding satisfaction from childish put-downs. Lets dissolve cliques and petty group thinking and move forward together in mature ideas.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Im not putting Tyrants down. I love em, but their not the best, all of the carnosaurs in diff ways are equal. Honkie, a dog can go 40mph for quite some time, now thats fast and all the firepower is in the head. Dogs lack firepower?? Woohoohoo. All their fire power is in their head, they pull animals down and eat them alive. This place is the worst. All you guys(about 4 of you) criticise people if they dont like T.rex, gang up on people if they dont agree with you,and you insult and try to degrade or humiliate them. Im sorry, but you guys arent real paleontology people. Theres no such thing as Tyrannosaurology. About the little story thing whoever wrote, try that same scenario with megaraptor. Might be different huh??? You wont say it, but its true. Hahaha. When all you can do is just insult, youve lost and somebody like Levine I guess will say something nasty. Im tired of you ppl being so hostile, I thought this was a place you could talk science and you took the facts for how they were, not tyrannosaur dogmaticism. Oh well. WHats funny is, almost everytime I say something about raptors, the ruling few of you jump in my chest about small 6-10 ft long raptors. PLEASE! Im talking raptors period and IF THEY WERE THE SAME SIZE as T.rex.! T.rex would get gutted. It might not be a one winner type fight, but T.rex sure wouldnt be walking away alive. Now if you wanna argue with that, oh lordy. Im sorry if I sound mad or anything, but I guess Im just really disappointed.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Honkie Tong--, I really admire your drawings. Do you have a drawing of Suchomimus tenerensis? If so, may I see it?
from Bryan, age 11, Willow Grove, PA, United States; November 27, 2000


" A day in the Life of Oviraptor "

Early one morning during the Cretaceous period in Mongolia an Oviraptor's luck seems to be holding. It has grabbed a baby Protoceratops from the nest and has a head start on the furious parent that has caught it in the act. Suddenly the hungry beast spots a nest full of Protoceratops' eggs not far away... Hunger drives it towards the nest... Quick as a flash, Oviraptor grabs an egg from the nest clutch. But not before it has been spotted. Oviraptor is not as fast as it was earlier in the day. It is not quick enough to escape Protoceratops' jaws. The wily predator finds a safe place to enjoy its stolen meal.. And once it has stripped the warm flesh off, the baby dinosaur's body, It crushes the bones in its powerful beak. Later Oviraptor goes in search of more food and spies an Iguanodon nest. The skilled egg tbief scurries up to the nest but suddenly an angry parent appears before it. Fortunately, Iguanodon only eats plants, But that doesn't stop it striking out to defend its eggs. Oviraptor has no chance against Iguanodon and makes good its escape. But it has been some hours since it last ate and it has to eat again soon to keep its strength up. The egg thief has no chance. Caught by the lef by one angry Protoceratops, it strikes out at another that bears down on it... But its struggle is useless. Within days, all that remains of the little egg thief is a pile of bones that will lie undisturbed until.. In 1923, they are found by a team of American Paleontologists where they have been for over 70 million years.
from Bryan, age 11, Willow Grove, PA, United States; November 27, 2000


Coelophysis..
Meaning: "Hollow Form".
Size: Up to 3m long and about 1.5m high.
Food: Meat-small reptiles and insects. Also possibly its own young.
Lived: 210 million years ago in the Late Triassic in south-western and eastern USA.
FACT: So many skeletons were found at Ghost Ranch that scientists had to be careful not to muddle up the bones of each Coelophysis. Many of the jumbled bones were eventually covered up so that two perfect examples of Coelophysis stood out from the rest. Copies of these skeletons can be seen today in many dinosaur museums throughout the world.

from Bryan, age 11, Willow Grove, PA, United States; November 27, 2000


I WATCH A LEARNING SHOW ABOVTE GIGANOTOSAUR. THEY SAID THAT GIGANOTOSAUER IS THE BIGGEST DINOSAUR BUT TIRANOSAUR IS MUTCH MORE INTELIGENT LIKE GIGANOTOSAUR AND FASTER TOO. I AGREE WHIT THEM.
THANK YOU FROR READ MY MENTION.

from Teya, age 11, Borovnica, Slovenia, Slovenia; November 27, 2000


Actually I'm the one who's mistaken. BBD was just adding to my case.
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


My favorite dino is T-Rex. Standing at least eighteen feet tall a six foot man would only reach his knee. T-Rex's enormous maw which could grow up to 5 feet long could tear through flesh and crunch through solid bone. Unlike the larger Giganotosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus T-Rex was equipped with bone crunching jaws. Giganotosaurus and is smaller relative Carcharodontosaurus had to kill their prey by taking huge chunks of meat out of them. Therefore T-Rex was superior. Grabbing his prey's neck he could bring down his jaws with a tremendous force causing his victim to die instantly. If T-Rex got in a battle with either Giganotosaurus or Carcharodontosaurus the outcome could not be rvealed. But in a way I think the more developed T-Rex would win the battle. Using the same tecnique as he would use to kill his prey T-Rex w! ould be the champion. That is why he's my favorite dino.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Hmm. Again for the 3rd time, I DID NOT say T.rex couldnt beat Giga, but IF they MET, the T.rex might back down, because the simple thought of its would be, "hes bigger and might hurt or kill me". Thats how carnivores are, most of them, except many loners or scavengers like wolverines or baboons. But who knows, theyre both long gone. . And wildcat, when you wanna call someone rubbish, read what they said carefully first. Oh the ignorance. Now about the raptors, Raptors had oversized claws, and those claws were so big the mouth did not need to be made large to kill. Those claws were too big just to be made to kill small animals, those claws are very big, not to mention LONG arms for a long reach and wide arc, retractable claws, high jumping ability, and high intelligence. Raptors were made for fast, quick and harsh kills. A raptor 13 ft tall would seriously tear up a T.rex. Hes faster. Thats that. T.rex could not move all that fast in ALL his reflexes . Maybe in the head and legs. Now wildcat(if your not an alter ego),honkie tong and lilian are kinda obsessed with T.Rex being the best and you guys want to argue if someone dosent agree with you. Then Levine comes in and Im not sure who he is. Now I dont want to argue, but T.rex is not the best. For a carnosaur hes slim, but hes still big and bulky and kinda slow. Small little arms, and the only weapon of his is head. Now if you want to talk about fighting, a septic bite dont take affect till after QUITE some time. Tyrannosaurs are great, but not the best. Raptors had speed, loooonnnggg reach and oversized claws plus higher intelligence. How stupid of you wildcat to call me names because I compared T.rex to a raptor, Ill say it nice simple for you to understand, IF A RAPTOR WAS AS BIG A T.REX. And for the housecat thing, its more like smilodonds trying to take an asian elephant, and Im not talking about Deinonychs or the small raptors, Im talking about Megaraptor, Utahraptor, and the 20footers from Asia and the 7 ft taller from Transylvania. Now I dont have the energy to argue with 4 people all at once. You guys are gangin up, and the pity of it is its just four of you who win cuz you come in numbers. I dont want to argue, I like to discuss. Now whats weird is some old soldier comes up in my face trying to compare living beings to guns. Guns are machines made to project bullets, plain and simple. Thats all theyre made for. SOme are made better to project large bullets or project bullets along with equipment to increase your accuracy. I dont know anything about guns and Im not interested, so shut up. Then Levine comes in talking about something and being VERY passive aggressive ending his statements with such things that basically call you someone who has no idea what they are saying. Be nice for a change, good grief. Besides Ill never back down about raptors being more deadly than Tyrannosaurs, cuz they are. Look at them, yes they may be light w! ith small heads, but the hands are huge, LARGE claws, long reach, wide arc, intelligence and the ability to jump high besides they were built to ambush and stalk, to climb, to slash and slap. T.rex was a running and biting machine. To hurt you, a tyrannosaur has to get in close quarters. Raptors can hang back and slap you with long claws, not to mention those claws were really covered in lots of keratine. A t.rex can turn on a dime, but to make full circle it takes him awhile, compared to a raptor that is. Bouncing from side to side to side while T.rex ambles around. I love him, but he cant beat a 13 ft raptor. Pleeaaasee. Thats like facing a muscle bound wrestler to a huge handed boxer with his arms to his shins. And remeber kiddies, Im talking about a raptor thats 13 feet tall, not 2-4 feet tall.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


About the Giga arms, I did respond, but since you wanna make people look bad, Ill repeat it lilian. Both their amrs were about equal size. Giganotosaurus' arms were bigger in diameter along with huge hands, which makes his look smaller. Tyrannosaurus didnt have longer arms, just a smaller hands and longer fingers. I bet you and honkie and wildcat or whoever is gonna jump all over me now, cuz theres something about me to you guys that brings out hostility. Dont be soo obsessed with T.rex, there are so many more dinosaurs out there.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


dear tri,

are you over 2,000,000 years old? i am over a decade years old!(cool hugh?) whar is your name? are you a boy or a girl? do you have a sister or a brother. well got to go
from ashley, age 11, dewitt, michigan, usa; November 27, 2000


You cant compare raptors to dogs. Dogs are carnivores who use the pursuit attack and they are built for such a thing. That includes, large head, long legs, slim build and built for running. Raptors are stalkers and pouncers. You will hate me for this, but Tyrannosaurs are the closest to having a similar build to dogs. You guys are just obsessed with Tyrannosaurus. He was not the gest dinosaur. He was good, but he was not the most deadly. Tyrannosaurs were runners, not ambush pouncers. About the whole komodo dragon mouth thing, Im not so sure about it being in many tyrannosaurs. Tyrannosaurs ate alot of bones too(there is proof in dung) and if any meat got stuck in the teeth, all that bone crunching and chewing would have pulled most of it out, then dont you have to have bleeding gums and saliva that has its own type of bacteria for that to happen? Im not being nasty, just asking. And my points are not weak, I backed all of mine up. Why are is it 2 o! r 3 of the people in here are always jumping in my chest about almost anything I say??? That dont happen to Brad.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


I think the giganotosaur picture was too small and at the wrong angle to really affect me. Maybe Giganotosaurus did have small arms, but I currently do not care. I am tired of theropods, they are the only dinosaurs we dscuss here! Isn't that happening to anyone else? Does it mean that I don't really like dinosaurs? Carcharodontosaur has permission to use my name.
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; November 27, 2000


Ummm... Another observation. Did BBD diss T.Rex and didn't he concede the points raised?
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Is it just me or does information and intentions have a tendency to get misinterpreted on the forum? Is Lilian T. really passive agressive? I'd say not to trust emotions. I think we've seen too many Malcom Effects because of them. Especially when you can't see the other persons face.
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Errr... you all said that BBD's points are weak, but on what? The Giganatosaurus debate or my Dromeosaurid debate? Cause BBD's using some of my points and vice versa... but on raptors.

I agree with Honkie, and I think we should have everybody elses feelings foremost on our minds.
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Ummmmmmmm... Why does Wildcat say that I was for Giggy? I was talking about raptors! I never mentioned Giggy! Anyway, I concede the points raised. Well, I compared raptors to big cats because of the information Dr. Holtz posted in the forum and information on raptors.
They have a third muscle in their jaws which gave them a powerful bite, so I thought that they would clamp their jaws over the throat of the prey animal and choak it to death as alot of predators do. The grappling hooks could hold the raptor in place while it did this.

Umm, and some other things. I never dissed T-Rex, and frankly he's my favourite Dinosaur. I kept emphasizing that I could be wrong. I was merely speculating on the hunting habits of raptors and I wanted to discuss this with you all. Anyway, I think we now know why four Deinonychus died next to a Tenontosaurus (Elephants and lions :)).

So we are at an agreement that all raptors below the size of Utahraptor did not attack the large herbivores in their environment, or at least only when necessary? And that raptors preyed on medium sized herbivores? The evidence is too ambiguous on pack hunting, so never mind that. Please reply.

Oh, and Honkie, can you help me? I have been drawing a T-Rex to keep myself occupied. How do you draw the neck? I think my T-Rex looks too much like an Acrochantosaurus. Help!
from DW, age 14, Singapore!, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Well, I guess a Pentium 3 450mhz with a Voodo3 3DFX card, in addition to 64mb of memory is above the adverage standard in America. Odd though, my computer is actually under-standard in Singapore, with the adverage consumer using 650mhz computers with 100+ mb or RAM. I guess our computing standard are one of the higest in the world.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


How you gotten it yet or is it still unacceptable?
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000
I put your picture up in the dinofan pix page (I had to reduce it to 8-bits or my computer couldn't deal with it). I've had people write me complaining that they couldn't see an entire picture on the screen without scrolling - you obviously have a better computer than most people - remember that many people have older computers with less memory and smaller screens than you have. I think it's too big for the voting page, especially for those with older computers (then those voters wouldn't even get to see their entries). JC


Lilian, Wildcat, consider lowering your tone, if you didn't mean harm to BBD, it certainly looks like you did. But I have to say BBD, I think Lilian and Wildcat are right. Your points are kinda weak.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


I'll edit if for content.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 27, 2000


Amphicoelias Fragillimus; estimated to be a 60 meters long, weighing a staggering 150 tons; almost as heavy as a blue wale
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


BBD, I do not want to be "passively aggressive" but you have not responded to the photos and posts by other dinotalkers about Giganotosaurus having SMALLER and WEAKER arms. Why is this so? Do you admit that Tyrannosaurus had bigger arms? How about you Brad? You said that they had big allosaur arms. WHat do you say now? Does the photo run contray to what you say?
from Lilian T., age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Once again, which Honkie, Honkie Tong or Honky Tong?
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Actually the biggest dinosaur was mentioned in Old Blood. I have forgotten how to spell it so you can look for it in the Old Blood where they were in the herbivore paddock looking at the sauropod herd. Your stats are correct though, but I'm not sure about the name.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


I'm quite resistant to critism, but I prefer to listen to the ones who deconstruct my story positively.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Hey, I was wondering if I could use some names from this place in the story I'm working on. Honky tong, brad, leonard, billy, do you mind if I could put your names in?
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


I have posted the prologue to my newest story, which will be shorter. As always, say it with me now, I AM LOOKIN' FOR SUGGESTIONS.
Just some interesting info I have kinda scraped from the bottom of the pan, perk a little conversation. The largest dinosaur ever was Antheselius (I think I spelled it right.) It was discovered in 1878 by Cope. All that was found was one vertabrate that itself was incomplete. The following are stats for the complete dinosaur. (Estimates of course)
Length: 150+ feet
Weight: 100+ tons
Lived: 140,000,000 BC
Height of complete vertabrate: 8 1/2 feet
Cope was going bankrupt, so he sold it to a museum in New York but got lost and was never found.

from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


BBD-No, I did not write instYnct too.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Sometimes I wished there was kinda a comments section for the fanfics, but'll open up a real big cans of worms.... any way to prevent this?
from Lilian T., age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000
I think that's an interesting idea (I won't upload hurtful persona attacks, but you're right, it will open up a can of worms, and figuring out which negative comments to upload will be very difficult). What do the writers think? Until we have a section like that, just write fanfic comments to dinotalk. JC


I agree, the raptors should more be compaired to dogs than lions. It's inaccurate compairative anatomy im BBD's part. Unless you can find pictures of dogs bringing down elephants, we'll concide.

Anyway, a pack of raptors trying to attack a adverage size herbivore is like a group of housecats trying to bring down a horse. The raptors were certainly not up to the task.

I'm afraid you have been mistaken BBD.
from Levine, age 24, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Sometimes, I think this debate about T.rex vs the other supercarnivores should never had started. THe reason T.rex had such a wide and bulky jaw was to leave space for the muscles of the jaw to work, givinhg it thw most powerful bite in the world. Not to mention those baterial trapping teeth that made its bite septic. It's teeth were antoehr matter, designed to gouge out flesh, not tear it. Any of the supercarnivores fighting T.rex would have been simply overcomed by its powerful bite. Note they couldn't do with a bite ratio of 1:1 the same way you can't trade a punch for a stab.

In the end, the supercarnivores would ahve hardly been a match for T.rex. T,rex would have taken damage in a fight, but hardly fatal damage. Prove? T.rex was the thoughest carnivore that ever lived, all skeletons found show that they fought and survived fights taht would have killed other carnivores long ago..... I donno how BBD or DW can even come up with a vaild argument for Giggy or that shark toothed liard, and they didn't, with arguments bothering on non-fact and specutlation. Who said Giggy's skull was easier to control? It nonsense! Giggy's and Cardon's skull weighted the same as T.rex, not to mention it was longer, meaning that there would be increased moments at the neck, making it hard to control...whatever happened to your physics?

Anyway, nonono, the other Supercarnivores were no match for Tyrannosaurus Rex. Not to mention Tyrannosaurus Rex actually belonged to a group of small dinosaurs. The raptors would not have put up too much of a fight either. They couldn't doge T.rexes bite. We know e could move his head unnaturally fast, not to mention his unstable hip joint allowed him to turn on a dime. He could easily face off and take down a parck of supposedly "deadiler pound for pound" raptors. I donno what had gotten into them, but they had actually decided to match a small carnivore against a big one! What rubbish! What Nonsense! What unthinking behaviour!
from Wildcat, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


One more thing Lilian, it was ME that said the raptors should be compaired to dogs, not you!
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Thanks a lot, that was the point I was tryign to bring up.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Hello! I havn't posted in nearly a week. Seeing some debate earlier on, I just want to confirm one thing. If T-rex and I ever met, no doubt he would kill me. His neck is made to wrench flesh off bone, not to mention hold his head up. His jaws were meant to kill and shred, while mine were made to eat my prey. Don't get me wrong, I am strong enough to suit my own purposes. It would be a bloody battle, but he would throw me to the bround and make sure I never got up. Just, remember, just because I wasn't stronger by no means says I was less successful.

I am currently working on another story that will be in the fan fic section by tomorrow.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


It looks like I have seriously underestimated your electoral system to come up with a quick desision...well, now Bush is the new T.rex of america!
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


You better get this straight, there are two people here, just like flamebird and firebird, there's Honky TOng and Honkie Tong. WHich one are you refering to?
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


I do not have a problem with you BBD, it just happen to be the way I write. Anyway, if you feel insulted or offended in any way, I am sorry okay? Cross my heat and hope (you) to die.(just kidding).

Anyway, as I said. The Raptors can be more compaired to dogs than cats. And dogs never bring down elephants.
from Lilian Tay, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


BBD, it's not good to do comparitive antamoty for raptor and lions for the simple reason hey do not hunt the same way. Lions are robustus killers, they literialy drag their prey to the ground, something the lightly built raptors would be stupid to try. Dogs more fit the hunting profile of the raptors, more scavengers than hunters. Like the dogs, Raptors cannot run fast and lack serious firepower, so I propose they hunted more like dogs.
from Honkie Tong, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


JC, the last time I put a story in was the 25th, not the 22nd. Could you change that?
Thanks!

from firebird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000
Done. JC


Small suggestion for the fanfiction page- Under our names, put the date that we last added something. It would be easier ot find the new stories that way.
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; November 26, 2000
Good idea. JC


The raptors scan the clearing from the cover of their hiding place within the monkey puzzle forest. The raptors is a beautiful predator, with switchblades claws designed to tear the life out of their victim. Long, dexterous hands allow them to work their prey into a killing bite. Strong swift legs allow them to sprint up to 40 miles per hour. Some species of raptors hunt in packs while some stake it out alone, but for the prey here, the raptors are of considerable size (3-4meters), and they hunt in packs.

The prey in question here is a male Anatotitan, 12 meters long an weighing 6 tons. The Anatotitan can crush the life out of a unwary lone raptor, but in a pack, the hardosaur's best defence is in a herd. Unluckly for this Anatotitan, it had somehow gotten seperated from its herd eariler in a Tyrannosaur attack. Usually the male, being in good health and of considerable size, would deter predators looking for a easy target, but the raptors are unusual as they readily attack even the strongest prey.

Rushing out of the undergrowth, the alpha raptor approaches the herbivore. The Anatotitan brays in alarm and rears up to deter the alpha raptor. The alpha raptor stops and hisses at the Anatotitan. The Anatotitan has little to fear from the alpha raptor as his immenese bulk deters an attack.

That is, until the rest of the pack burst out into the clearing behind the Anatotitan. Raptors do not plan their attack, but an entire pack may stalk the prey and surround it until the alpha raptor attacks. This triggers a free for all in which the raptors attack their prey en masse. The Anatotitan is heavily outnumbered and brays in fear and pain as they leap onto his thick hide and start kicking into him. He bucks and rears in a vain attempt to dislodge the predators but the fight is as over as soon as it begins. The Anatotitan collaspes in a spray of arterial blood and the raptors are quick to end his fight for survival in their favour.

An Anatotitan is a big kill, and a big kill may feed them for days. However, they must also defend their kill sucessfully during that period. Without wasting time, they start to eat the colossal body of their prey.

Bursting out of the undergrowth in thundering steps, a male Tyrannosaurus Rex roars and stamps his feet ten meters away from the kill. Usually a Tyrannosaurus moves around quietly while stalking a kill, but his intention this time is to intimidate. His does a good job at it, roaring and pretending to charge. His mission is obvious, he wants their kill.

Usually, a raptor pack would have withdrawn in such a situtation, but this raptor pack is a big pack, and the alpha raptor senses that his pack is big enough to have a chance of beating the Tyrannosaurus in a fight. However, attacking a Tyrannosaur is dangerous, even a pack will certainly take heavy losses if they decide to take on the Tyrannosaur. For a moment, the entire pack joins the alpha raptor in hissing and snarling at the Tyrannosaur in a tense stalemate.

Suddenly, a female Tyrannosaur charges out of the monkey puzzle forest in a ear-splitting roar. She is bigger than the male Tyrannosaur and thus more intimidating. This is no coincidence, Tyrannosaurus breed by pair-bonding, and this is certainly the first Tyrannosaurus' mate.

The alpha raptor is distracted by the noisy female and fails to notice he is now standing less than three meters from the first Tyrannosaur. The Tyrannosaur senses this and siezes the raptor in a sudden blur of movement. The raptor squeals in surprise and pain. It kicks out vainly at the giant predator and one bite ends the life of the doomed animal.

Seeing the death of their leader, the resolve of the raptor pack breaks and they bolt. The female Tyrannosaur sees to this , chasing them into the forest before turning back. She waits a while before confirming that the raptors really are gone before giving a series of short, sharp burplike barks.

The undergrowth starts to move as three 4 meter long animals move out. They are young Tyrannosaurus, offspring of the pair. Aready they have the bone cruching teeth of their parents but are yet too small and inexperienced to bring down live prey, they learn by watching their parents. For now, they start to tear at the flesh of the dead Anatotitan with their mother. The male has his own with the mangled raptor. Quickly, they feed.

The tyrannosaurs are a sucess story. Over the years, their numbers have been steadily increasing while other predators, like the raptors are declining. It is aready clear that they have now replaced all other raptor and carnosaur ecological niches. Even eons after the dinosaurs went extinct, their sucess contuines as more and people send votes for them. I am not different. THis vote goes out to T.Rex.
from SP, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Speak for yourself BBD There is evidence that T-Rex hunted in a pack. Now since you have gone through the misguided trouble of dissing T-Rex, I shall engage in your childish game of pitting on dino against another. A pack of rexes vs a pack of Utaraptors will definatly win. Why? firstly, bothe dinos were equally smart. Similar brain size meant no dino was dumber. However, Utaraptor's claws did not pack as much punch as a Rex bite (that's 15tons/square inch mind yo!) While one slash from utaraptor would dice flesh, One bite from rex will shread flesh and caush nasty compound fractures. T-rex's discusting oral hygine would also mean that infection would set in from one bite (a tatic the monitor lizards use). Utaraptor would have an advantage in speed and agility, but they would be overwhelmed by T-Rex's bulk (means they can take more damage) Firepower and bad breath (t-rex's chemical warfare). Ok let's stop this. The utaraptor is good at doin' its o! ! wn thing, so was t-rex. In fact, I say the Utaraptor is the T-REX of the Raptor family one reason it's also one of my favourite dinos, followed by t rex.
from Rex Defender, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


I dont think T.rex would have backed off. Firstly, height mattered most in intimadition, but rex and giggy were the same height...giggy was just fatter. What would happen? The fiercely terrotral T.rex will probally figure that giggy is a pushover and attack, bringing it down withing 3 bites.

How about Carcharodontosaurus? Well, his shark teeth were good for hunting herbivores, but bad for fighting rexy. Rexy would have shoveled out seveny kg of meat from cardi while the best he can do is to put a puny semicircle which is patetic by rex standars as they always btit each other...sorry, but the other big carnivores would have been no contest for rex. I don't see how a longer lighter head is an advantage in meele weapons. If you fight hand to hand with a guy, a dagger is worth more than a awkward sword! those arguments of yours fall apart under examination,....they're all rubbish!
from Wildcat, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Lilian T, I dont know you and its pretty obvious your awfully passive aggressive towards me for some reason im not sure about. I jus dont know, arent you folks sposed to be friendly? Anyway, no matter the ratio, lions do hunt elephants EXCLUSIVELY in the dry season. Not only have I read the article, but I also seen the documentary and read the book about that pride way before that ol article even came out. Then since you said to not compare lions to raptors or I guess pretty much anything prehistoric to modern day, check this out. "It also helps to look at the flesh-and-blood animals of today for similarities with the dinosaurs of yesterday. Modern animals like ostriches with long and slender legs are fast runners, so it makes sense that dinosaurs with such legs could have hustled along just as quickly. Since today's fish-eaters such as porpoises and crocodilians boast conical teeth - the better to skewer their dinner with - dinosaurs with conical ! teeth, such as Suchomimus of Africa, probably went fishing for supper, too.

"It's what we call comparative anatomy," explains paleontologist Thomas Holtz of the University of Maryland. "Different animals have solved problems in similar ways, so we look at similarities in their anatomy and, consequently, their lifestyles."

Past and present animals with similar lifestyles might well have behaved in similar ways, too"

Lilian T. Im not mad at you at all, but what have you and honky tong got against me??? Im new and I love dinosaurs. I dont know you guys, but there is some hostility. You guys are always on my case, even if your subject has about 10% of something to do with what I said. Talk about problems.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


The problem with the Grappeling hook theory is that is severly limits the amount of damage a raptor can do, bringing it down to celousaur level. Making it hard for it to bring down big prey in time. As you can see, the raptors tried to get bigger as something in their body plan wasn't working out for them. But the early Tyrannosaur came and truly and totally finished it for them. Sorry BBD, but your Natural Geographic only proves the case even more. It proves that predators like the raptors rarely brought down large prey. The raptors were hardly deadly, they were overrated......
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Hey, to a BBD over here. I really think you shouldn't quote the Nat.Geo article. Wanna know why? Because it proves that lions rarely attack elephants! The RARELY attack big prey. I think its even rarer for the wimpy raptors! So as a whole, they did not attack big prey after all, ohhhhhh. Bad quote man, you killed your own case!
from Wildcat, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Honky Tong, I dont care who would win between Rex and giga, if they met rex would back down, even if he is capable of winning. The rex will think, hes bigger and louder than me, uh oh. Thats that. What is the deal with you jumping in my chest all the time everytime I compare Rex and Giga??? Hmm?
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Yes, I am watching it, but this year not so many artistes.
from Lilian T., age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Even though raptors had hook like claws, they could still slash, which probably more of what they did than grapple. THe arms are long and the heads small. Even dinosaurs who hunt small prey have big heads compared to their body size. Raptors(especially big ones) were probably adapted for big prey, like sabertooth tigers. The claws are way too big to be used just for grapple or small prey. Those were cutting claws. Raptors used their long reach and speed to cut prey. I mean big prey too. But T.Rex couldnt beat a dromaeosaurus the same size as it. T.Rex was less intelligent and slower, and you know this, maan. The raptor coud dodge its attacks and slap out gashes from a long distance. They werent close in fighters or really wrestlers. They were long distance attackers. I dont think there any more built like that, and the hook theory, cats have meat hook like claws too, but their claws can cut you just as easy as a knife can. Where is the analysis for! raptors having lousy jump capacity? Im curious.

Oh yeah, I got this off Discovery.com=At 6 a.m. on Monday, May 8, a severely injured wolf was found bleeding heavily near the road in Yellowstone National Park. It was the reigning dominant female - the alpha - of a pack of wolves known as the Druid Peak Pack, which had been reintroduced to the park in 1996.
She was the mother of a 4-week-old litter of puppies. Park officials struggled to save her, but within a few hours, she died.

Think about Sue. Maybe she couldve been ousted. Maybe? Maybe there were some members who didnt want to leave without her, or like hyenas do: When the head female dies or is ousted, her young get the same treatment much of the time. Maybe this was Sue's fate.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Guys, the next Old Blood is out.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Hey Lilian, are you watching the hong xing da ziang now?
from Honky Tong, age 12, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


It wouldn't be good to compair lions to Raptors. Lions were faster, smarter and meaner than the raptors. I suppose the raptors would have not hunted big prey as they would have risked serious injury. Not to mention the lion-elephant weight ratio is about 1:10. If a raptor attacked a normal herbivore in those times, the ratio would be 1:25, too high for a sucessful hunt. Not to mention lions pack a far meaner punch than any'ol raptor. I find the guns compairism valid. The raptors would probally lose if pitted against the fast-thinking, agile T-rex.
from Lilian T., age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


My sentiments exactly DW. I had long advocated the grappeling hook theory. Though it would be hadzards for the raptors to hunt this way to. Recent anaylsis indicate the Raptors had a lousy jump capacity. So they way for them to attack would be to climb onto the back of the prey to attack. Their body forms don't fit big game hunters either. They were lightly built and not partucicualy strong. Big game raptos were probally Utaraptor, not Dyeno. I figure a kick from a herbivore would kill a raptor outright. But as of yet, we have not found evidence of healed injuries on a large herbivore that might prove beyond all doubt of raptor attacks on large prey. The reason the big game theory is starting to wear thin.

We know that the Tyrannosaurs attacked big prey as we have found healed injuries, but as of yet, no raptor caused injuries have been found.....odd, considering the fact that the raptors were around for longer. It probally wouldn't be in their best intrests to hunt big prey. There were alot of medium sized dinosaurs that would have been easier pickings for them.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


I just watched the Ultimate Guide to Tyrannosaurus Rex. It turns out Jack Horner was wrong after all. T.rex could run very fast and was a predator.
from Josh, age 6, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


Size would probally count. But I donno why you think Giggy's(did I come up with this nickname) was more agile in the head. T.rex's shorter and more compact head would have been easier to move in a CQB. Not to mention one rex bite = about at least 5 giggy bites. Unless giggy can bite 5 times faster than rex, He's going down. I surmise a Tyrannosaur would only attack a Giggy if it was seriously threatened.

I also read the article about the lions attacking elephants. Unfortunately, I searched up more about this and found out the lions only did this when they had to. They ended up getting 1 lion death for every 2 elephants they killed. So I figured it wouldn't be in the lions best intrest to do that all the time...which they didn't. They only hunted elephants during the dry season.
from Honkie Tong, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


HEY!!!!!! THecodonts DID have feathers!!!!! Check this out about longisquama, but remember, no archosaur is a "reptile". Theyre all so much more. And this proves it plus the other evidences. But you fellas and fellets now this maann.( http://members.tripod.com/~megalania/longisquama.html)
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 26, 2000


I have this simple test to see if a raptor's claw could function as a grappling device. There are two versions, practical and impractical.
For the impractical test you need: a lot of money, a meat hook and an uncooked steak that most likely cannot be eaten after the experiment.

For the practical test you need play dough or plasticene, any hook you can find and a diagram of a raptors claw. This is what you do:

Step 1: Get plasticene and pound it until it is as dense a possible and place it in a container.

Stpe 2: Take hook and compare it to the diagram of a raptor's claw. If the hook does not match, disgard it and repeat as necessary.

Step 3: 'Hook' the hook into the plasticene (don't push it in) and shake container vigourously in all directions.

Stpe 4: Note down time it took to dislodge the hook (if any)and repeat Step 3 two more times. Average the time.

This simple experiment shows that a raptor's claw can function as a grappling device. Reasons:
1. Claw is shaped like a hook, and could not be used as a slashing device as the animal did not have the muscles and no stress marks have been found to indicate slashing. The claw tip could penetrate flesh as physics dictates that the less surface area available, the more pressure can be applied. There is hardly any surface area on the tip.
2. The only way the claw can be ripped out is if a large enough force is applied or the claw is retracted the same way it came in. A side to side motion might dislode the claw but in life the animals foot would have stopped this. A forward motion would have driven the claw further in. A backward motion would also possibly dislodge the claw but when driven in 180 degrees from original position, does not.

While this test is not perfect, it's better than nothing. If you wish, apply this test with a replica raptor claw to a big slab of steak :).
from DW, age 14, Singapore!, ?, ?; November 25, 2000


About the walking with dinosaurs Diplodocus...the end of the tail that was real thin is was HIGHLY flexible and able to whip, though some scientists theorize it was for sexual use instead of defense. The sound of the crack for example was to impress cows and run off bulls. I dont know what to think about that. They havent found any carnivores with tail whip injuries, maybe it was just for sexual use? We know for sure the fore paws were defensive weapons. If giggy and Rex did go head to head, it would be a tie, no doubt. THey both have small arms and long heads, though giggy's is longer so he coulve got first blow, not to mention quicker reflexes, but they were built for what they did and thei job and they were excellent for their niche. If they met each other theyd probably stare at one another and back off. Giganotosaurus being larger and less intelligent wouldve ran for the rex, and the rex and rex being smarter and seeing himself as smaller probably wouldnt have calculated chances and backed off. T.Rex was just as tuff, but thats how predators are, their instincts are like that when theyre bythemselves, remember nature has no hospitals and when you get hurt REAL bad, your ass is grass. Many predators arent fast to fight and dont want to either, just how they are. Carcharodontosaur-Did you write InstYnct too?
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 25, 2000


Completed modifications of my LEGO Stego. Another Throwbot was disassembed for parts, the Amazon/Jungle one. The Stego is looking a bit more modern, it has a neck now that allows the head to be up a bit higher. Actually, it looks a lot like the stegosaur in The Lost World: Jurasic Park. The thagomizer is screwed up, I had to use the arm pieces of the Throwbots. If this isn't making sense, I basically took (lego parts) and built a dinosaur. Any other LEGO maniacs on cooldinos? There's still lots of dinosaur island adventure sets out there to get you started! I also still have my perfect LEGO figure scale Utahraptor (which I will never take apart), I'll take a picture of it too.
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; November 25, 2000


I just built a great model of Stegosaurus with my LEGO! And we are getting a digiatal camera and a scanner for Christmas, so you just might be able to see it some day! I used pieces from the Millennia Throwbot, it has great plate elements. Hind limbs need some work though. The shoulders and head worked well, although I used the extreme slope of older restorations instead of the newer picture. I still like it though. You have to see it.
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; November 25, 2000


Fine. Megaraptr 2001 is gone.
from coolcat, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 25, 2000


I put the ornitholestes v coelurus thing out randomaly. Also, tyrannosaurus and carchardontosaurus could have "tied" if they fought, but they probably never met. The were both suited to their own world. Also in walking with dinosaurs, when Allosaurus got whacked by adult Diploducus, the Diploducus was very lucky it's tail didn't break! Good raptor pictures.
from russell p., age ***, seattle, wa, usa; November 25, 2000


Dino-show-us II is here! Reuben, Honkie Tong, and Tinker don't get any credit for helping Sue and Brachy 2 distroy Coolcat and his robots. Sue and Brachy 2 are too popular. How will they gain or lose popularity? Find out. An interview with Sue will be in the fiction section soon. Readers should anser questions.
from Reuben B., age 7, Needham, MA, USA; November 25, 2000


The Rapters have big tails for running fast,and balance.
from Martin G., age 8, Los Angles, California, U.S.A; November 25, 2000


I am a fellow Rex fan. Rex fans should not fight or it will give T.Rex a bad name. Does anyone know why flamebird wants to go to war with me? His name is almost the same! The first letter is lowercased like my name, flame is another word for fire, and we both are a firebird! Now that describes me, a firebird does. And it is also the title of my book. Now if you want to play war and end up gone and rex fans will disown you, that's fine with me. Just go play it with someone else, because I can get mean. Why do you think I call myself firebird?
from firebird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 25, 2000


The article is in the November 2000 National Geographic Magazine. It's entitled "Preying on Giants". It's about Lions deliberately hunting elephants for food around a water hole during the dry season in Chobe National Park, Botswana. And it's got nice pictures too.
Do you want me too scan them in?

I think we can safely assume that millions of years ago, similar occurances took place in an ecosystem long vanished.
from DW, age 14, Singapore!, ?, ?; November 25, 2000


HAHAHAHAH! YES YES YES YES YES! I FOUND IT! I FOUND MY ARTICLE! IT'S NATOINAL GEOGRAPHIC! YES!!!!

Here it is: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0011/feature5/index.html

Lions do attack adult elephants. This shows how adaptive life is and how behaviour modifies itself. Life is beautiful.
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 25, 2000


BBD is right about lions attacking (adult) elephants. I saw it on the Discovery channel (or was it National Geographic?). (HAH! ARGUE WITH THAT! Sorry..... pent up aggression..... need to take my pills..... JUST KIDDING!)

Seriously all I found on google on this are five links. These are my search results:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lions%2Bhunting+%2Belephants%22&btnG=Google+Search&hl=en&lr=&safe=off
(Copy and paste)
I also searched discovery.com and came up with too many search results. And National Geographic. Help!

Let's find out more about this and then apply it to the world of the dinosaurs (a.k.a. Actualism).

For my story, I'm not going to reconstruct the person like in Timeline but I'm going to transport the person straight through a wormhole enlarged from the quantum foam. Of course, the Delorean is way cooler...
from DW, age 14, Singapore!, ?, ?; November 25, 2000


First of all, the lt. Im not interested in guns and I dont know about them, ok? Kind of stupid to compare them to living things in my opinion. Talk guns somewhere else. Then I didnt say raptors could threaten a Tyrannosaur and ALL carnivores are excellently built for how and what they do, but pound for pound means if both were the same size. If you had a 40ft long, 7 ton tyrannosaur face off against a 7 ton Dromaeosaurus, its simple, the one with bigger weapons and speed is the winner, maybe he will die later, but he would kill the opponet first. The winner, the raptor. Now in reality, Tyrannosaurus could kill a raptor easily, if it could catch it, but a raptor dont want nothing to do with a grown T.Rex or any other tyrannosaur bigger than it. Thats that. Now about big game hunters, your forgetting smilodonts. Prey much bigger than them was their focus, like ice age bison, mastodons, young mammoths and the like. Then your forgetting how tigers take on Guar and there are lions who kill elephants in a certain sector especially in the dry season. Bigger doesnt mean badder. Im not being straightened out either, thats down right insulting. That lilian T girl really has a probelm with me. I dont wanna fight, but there is no need for passive aggression. I dont wanna fight, just discuss, like Brad does. Thats a true scientist's way, cuz in arguements, nothing is solved, only anger and hurt feelings.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000


What's up with the new fan fic? It looks like a condensed, violent version of Bill's Old Blood. Can the writer please identify yourself. Also why is Bill's Old Blood so far down, it's takes time to scrool down to it.
from Weiming, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000


Honkie here, what's up with that Carnosauria stuff anyway?
from Honkie Tong, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000


Yo brudder, peace and love man, war's bad man. But if they insist on insulting us further man, we have to fight back man, but remember, peace and love man.
from Honkie Tong hippie, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000


There is no need for war. I was here 1st!
from firebird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000


Do we have to play war with you?

I assume this means writing fanfics where cooldinos participants and their dinosaurs are blown up and stuff.... Doesn't sound like much fun.

Is it too early to start a discussion about JP3?
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; November 24, 2000


CNA Headlines

DECLARATION OF WAR

Early November 24 2000, a group known as the Raptor Axis Invaders have declared war on all countries of the Tyrannosaur Alliance.

Leading the attack would be the Raptor leaders Hipauler and Martinlinni, leaders of the Raptor Axis alliance. Currently, theyt are inciting other countries to join. This may be the start of the Second Zoom War. The first Zoom War ended up with the defeat of Jimmy L, former leader of the Axis forces.

Mobilization

Currently, the Allies are mobilizing their forces to deal with the threat. But weathetr they can sucessfully counter this threat remains to be seen. General Firebird describes this as a state of emergency greater that anything every seen in Zoom. The previous dinosaur wars ended eariler with the defeat of coolcat and Kylie.

The return of coolcat?

Despite self imposed exile, coolcat has been sighted a few times in ZoomDinosaurs, could he be back to join the Axis?

When the Axis and Allies are in conflict, only time will determine who goes down into history as the victor or the loser.
from Reporter, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000


I know that Dienonychus hunted in packs and had a big claw on the second toe on each foot.
from Martin G., age 8, Los Angles, California, U.S.A; November 24, 2000


Firebird, we are going to war, all T.Rex fans listen up. Contact all your fellow Rex fans and get them to vote here? Got it? Yo yo yo, we can trash their arses man. They're two, we're many!
from flamebird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000


I suspect the megolosaur type builds were designed for sauropod hunting. Unlike the one bite killers like the Tyrannosauids, Those super big carnivores probally tailed sauropods and bit away at them, doing so until the sauropod was too weak to fight back. We notice they are slow predators for the precise reason they do not have to run fast. In the natural world, it dosen't make big sense for the dig Giggies to hunt hardosaurs as they would have been outsmarted.
from Leonard, age 12, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000


Raptor Lesson

Many myths about a few puny predators called the raptors are incredibly misleading, lets examine a few of them:

1. They could threaten big prey.

Truth: This is not true. If we look carefully at mordern pack hunting animals, we realize they do not attack animals way above their body size. We rarely see lions hunting elephants for the simple reason a member of the pride could risk injury in an encounter like this, ending its usefulness to the pack.

2. They could threaten Tyrannosaurus

Truth: I don't think they would want to have anything to do with Tyrannosaurus. A few three meter raptors would have hardly made an impression on a pair of approaching Tyrannosaurus. If push came to shove, the raptors would get the worst of it.

3. They jumped onto the back of their prey and used their claws to slash.

Truth: Once again idle speculation. The raptors have all the wrong leg bone proportions for jumping. Latest estimates put their jump at 8 feet for the medum raptors. Big raptors like Utahraptor could hardly jump. About the toe claw. The toe claw was hardly used for slashing the prey as no evidence of such stress on their claws have been found. The toe claws was also really too blunt to slash. Using them as grappeling hooks is hardly sensible either as struggling prey could dislodge them and cause serious injury. It's evolutionary deterimental of them to hunt this way...(was that why they went textinct?)
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000


No problem Brad. Hey BBD, we're not saying T.rex is the deadilest dinosaur for everything. But in his department, he certainly was. I mean, come on, T.rex was probally the deadilest predator to a Hardosaur while the raptors were probally the deadilest to small dinosaurs. Each has its own points and I don't think they can fill each other's ecological niche. It's like the husecat and the lion. You don't see lions catching mice, nor do you see housecats bringing down Wilderbeast. To each dino its own.

Tyrannosaurus was the deadilest big game hunter ever. BBD, he wasn't particually slow, as Billy Macdraw's Old Blood painfully said. We suspect Tyrannosaurus could run up to 50 kilometers per hour, which is the estimated speed of Velociraptor. It makes sense, as for ever four steps Velociraptor makes, T.rex can cover the distance in one.
from Honkie Tong, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000


Honkie Tong, the text of Raptor Lesson is hard to read. Can you post it separately, please?
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; November 24, 2000


From HT

raptor lesson
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; November 24, 2000

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