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Dino Talk Sept 1-3, 2001: A Dinosaur Forum

Two new dinosaurs, both therizinosauroids!

Eshanosaurus deguchiianus Xu, Zhao & Clark, 2001
Based on a lower jaw from China. It is the oldest member of this clade and the Maniraptora, being of Early Jurassic age.

Nothronychus mckinleyi Kirkland & Wolfe, 2001
This names been out for a while, as a nomen nudum. Well, now it's official. First named therizinosauroid from North America.

from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; September 3, 2001


Hmm...it seems ever since Giganotosaurus came out being longer and alittle bit bigger, plus Spinosaurus appearing in JP3 as the winner in a bout against T-Rex. This seems to be the topic of choice these past months, vs. this vs. that, vs. here and there...this is getting really pointless. First off, none of them lived in the right times to fight eachother, and plus they aren't like us humans, they dun fight to see who's the most powerful, and they don't rank eachother.
In my opinion, anyone can win, someones always going to get the advantage, I mean, I'm a T-Rex fan and I just want to tell you guys the truth, if a T-Rex where to get attacked by another predator, and it where to get criticaly injured, the T-Rex could lose or die. They weren't invincible, but yes, they where superpredators! In my opinion, if your over 30 ft long, and you have lots of teeth, plus you kill prey in order to survive, I think your already talented enough. I will not rank which dinosaur is better, but I think that each of them where unique in there own way, but like I said, we as humans seem to have alot of fun trying to say our dino is the more dominant...WHO CARES ABOUT THAT! Why don't we talk more about how they survived for so long, how they hunted, or how they could move there 30 ton bodies. Remember, we need facts, what those paleontologist bring back from the bones they find is to teach us about how dinosaurs lived and dominated the world for such along time, not on how dinosaurs fought eachother in death matches to see which one was the supreme dinosaurs. I feel regret and lost, for it seems many people have lost the whole insight on dinosaurs, they where spectacular creatures, no matter how big or small or how powerful, they where unique in every way possible. I think we should stick to that.

A dinosaur fan,

Kamui
from Dark Kamui S., age 19, Green Bay, Wisconsin, US; September 3, 2001


Sorry Jason about mis-quoting you. I should have read your message more carefully before attacking it and I apologize whole-heartedly for my mistake. I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to make you look stupid but I was only trying to say that I looked at it differently. Obviously I need to read messages a little more carefully before I attack them. Once again, I'm sorry and I'll think twice before I go around critisizing others points of view.

Before I finish this message though, I want to say one more time that I do think that the guys at JP made Dilophasaurus scarier than he was. If they wanted to have a 6 meter long monster attacking the computer programmer as he attempted to escape the island they would have put in one of those oversized Velociraptors after him. I mean, think about it, the real Dilophasaurus may have been bigger, but the only scary things on him were those claws and that double crest (well, that's not as scary as it was weird). The true Dilophasaur relied on his size to be intimidating, but since the Velociraptors of the movie already had that size, I think that the JP guys decided to change Dilophasaurus to add more diversity to the creatures at the park. They made him scarier by adding a capability to spit poison and add a deployable frill. The Dilophasaur's small size was to further diversify himself from the other dinosaurs, because if he was his normal size, as I mentioned earlier, he would have just been a strange looking Velociraptor.

Once again, I'm sorry for mis-interpreting your message, Jason, and anyone else's message I may have mis interpreted.
from A very sorry Skeptic, age 13, ?, ?, Canadian and not as proud; September 3, 2001


Its almost impossible for Tyrannosaurus not to win in a fight with Gigantosaurus. T-rexes bite is way more powerful then Gigantosaurus. Tyrannosauruses teeth were like railroad spikes, they were round at the base and deeply rooted in the jaws with mussels that could power 3,000 pounds of force per squareinch, stronger then a crocodile, they were designed for crushing bone and were powerful enough to bite through a car. If T-rex bite Gigantosaurus in a vital area like the head or neck it would instantly kill it. Were as Gigantosaurus teeth were sharper but very thin and could easily break if they hit bone or ttough muscle, unless it could get T-rex in a vonerable area that i can't find. Gigantosaurus had an advantage of size, weight,and its larger arms with sharper claws,but i don't think any of this can compare with the strength that T-rex had in its jaws. Maybe if Gigantosaurus could tackle a Tyrannosaur to the ground with its 3 ton of extra weight, and size. But when it did how would it defend its self, and how would it keep Tyrannosaurus stabilize. If it used its mouth, it could break its teeth and it would have no way to protect its self.
As for Tyrannosaurus being a scavenger, its clear that T-rex was a bone crusher, and bone crushing is usally whats seen in scavengers.
But, Tyrannosaurus was perfectly desinged as a predator, and the reason for its small arms is because the skull gave it all it needs to kill its prey. And with on uses for the arms they grow smaller to subtracted the weight from the front end of the body allowing the head to grow larger through evolution. I don't think the legs look like the legs of a runer. the tibia in Tyrannosaurs is about the same lenght as the femur. The legs of a runer have tibia that is longer then the femur. But the muscles in the legs may have given T-rex the ability to run very fast for a short period of time. Maybe it would use the muscles in its legs to hold down its prey with its foot while it bite its victum in the neck or the back of the head. The way I see it, T-rex would ambush its prey from side and behind, and with one quick burst of speed, chase the animal and trie to bite it in the hips, or some were on the leg, or back. This would cripple it and put it on the ground. Then, it would pin it down with its foot, and come down with it's jaws to finally kill it.
I do agree that T-rex and other larg carnivores cared for there young. I don't think the adults could suport more then 3 or 4. I do know, that they would care for at lest one. Allosaurus nest have been found with very big pieces of other dinosaurs that they brought back to the nest to feed there young. This I KNOW because this has been found in Wyoming.

from KC, age 14, Mocksville, N.C, U.S.A; September 3, 2001


I think you're looking at this the wrong way. As you said, it would have been a lot of trouble for something like a T. Rex to meet it's needs. That's not how I see it. Infact, the T. Rex had evolved from earlier theropods so it could meet these needs better. T. Rex was powerfully built and could have outrun many herbivores of it's day, including hadrosaurs and ceratopsians. Though it could have been difficult at times to kill a triceratops, hadrosaurs were virtually defenseless except for their speed. Seeing as T. Rex was faster, though, they could have made an easy lunch any day, rather than having to hunt down carrion."

You are looking at this the wrong way. I said the larger adults wouldn't take the time or trouble to hunt as often as yunger, more active, healthier dinosaurs. Their size alone would be an intimidating sight. This would make it easier to steal from creatures who made fresh kills.

"Sorry Jason, but that's not how I see it. Struthiomimus was one of the late cretacious Dinosaurs that looked like an ostrich. At first, people though that it ate eggs because it was in a position approaching one, but careful examination later revealed that this carnivore was actually acting much like a chicken and sitting on it's egg, keeping it warm until it hatched. I find this highly likely seeing the close relation between odern day birds and theropods.

And when you said that a young animal would not have been able to keep up, did you ever think that perhaps theropods built nests like modern day birds and left their young their while the adult went hunting? And that it would stay that way until the young was old enough to "keep up?""

I was talking about the adults not being able to keep up. Yes, I did think they would build nests. Yes, they most likely left their young to hunt. You missed the whole point of my post. If you will look at modern animals that nurture and care for their young, they all have only 1-3 babies, with the exception of a few species. Why? It is too much trouble too take care of any number of offspring higher than that. Many birds, elephants, lions, cheetahs, bears, seals, etc. all have only small numbers of offspring. By the way, DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT, EVER, CHANGE MY POSTS IF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE THEM IN ORDER TO MAKE ME SOUND STUPID, AND MAKE YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE SENSE. Did an anti-rex fan ever stoop to that level? No. J.C., would you block this guy or something? He misquoting me!
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; September 3, 2001
He ought to stop, but if he doesn't, just let everyone know when he mis-quotes you (or takes a quote out of context). JC


THE FIGHT IN JP3 WAS CHEAP AND MADE THE T-REX LOOK LIKE A LOSER BUT IN REAL LIFE THE SPINOSAURS WOULDN'T HAVE HAD A PRAYER IN THE WORLD. IT'S LONG MOUTH AND NOSE DISIGN WOULD HAVE MADE THE SPINOSAUR A VERY BAD FIGHTER AGANIST A T-REX. AFTER I SAW THE MOVIE I CAME HOME AND ENTERED THE DINOSAURS INTO MY COMPUTER AND PLACED THEM IN A FIGHT SCENE AND HAD THE REX GRAB SPINOSAURS NECK LIKE IN THE MOVIE AND HIS VERTABRATE WOULD HAVE BEEN SMASHED BY THE T-REX'S BONE CRUSHING TEETH. THE T-REX HAD A BITING POWER OF 3500 POUNDS PER SQUAR INCHE WHITCH IS STRONGER THEN A SHARK BIT AND WOULD BE ABLE TO BIT A CAR IN HALF. FOR ALL YOU SPINO FANS SPINOSAURS WOULD HAVE ONLY EATEN FISH!
from Aaron M, age 27, Chandler, AZ, USA; September 3, 2001


DINOFIGHTS
Go to www.dinofights.cjb.net and check it out we have a new logo and Mr. Dinofight is working on some more stories come on in and check it out.
www.dinofights.cjb.net

from Dinofight, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 3, 2001


Megaladon i think. megaladon was 50 to 65 feet long and a whale shark grows to 45 feet, but I once heard of a whale shark that can grow to 65 feet long
from KC, age 14, ?, N.C, U.S.A; September 3, 2001


"Hmm, maybe a lot of large predators were mainly scavengers, because it took less energy. I mean, it would be a heck of a lot of trouble for such a huge animal to go on and hunt to meet it's needs. The larger the animal, the more energy it needed to maintain itself. Teen age carnivores may have hunted more actively, and the larger adults would only steal and scavenge when they saw fit."

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. As you said, it would have been a lot of trouble for something like a T. Rex to meet it's needs. That's not how I see it. Infact, the T. Rex had evolved from earlier theropods so it could meet these needs better. T. Rex was powerfully built and could have outrun many herbivores of it's day, including hadrosaurs and ceratopsians. Though it could have been difficult at times to kill a triceratops, hadrosaurs were virtually defenseless except for their speed. Seeing as T. Rex was faster, though, they could have made an easy lunch any day, rather than having to hunt down carrion.

Next, theropods, expecially T. Rex, had jaws designed to kill. With jaws like that, one bone crushing bite and the prey was dead. Other theropods, like gigantosaurus, also had slim, thin jaws and short, narrow teeth, which some may think could have helped in eating carrion. I prefer to believe that these jaws were used to cut flesh, sowhen a Gigantosaur ran in, in bit, then backed off and watched the prey bleed to death.

This is how cretacious theropods functioned. Earlier ones in the jurassic, like Allosaurus, were more adept to have been killing sauropods like apatosaurus. Allosaurus is thought of something that would stalk it's prey, hidden among vegetation, then jump in, ripping and tearing at the prey's neck. With extra long necks, sauropds like Apatosaurus would have been vulnerable to this form of predatation. Fossils have also been found in Texas which support the idea that Allosaurs of that time huted Apatosaurs.

If you look at the difference between an Allosaur and a Tyrannosaur, you will notice that Theropods changed slightly from the Jurassic to Cretacious. I believe that this is because the dominant herbivores of each period changed. For Jurassic, Allosaurs would have been best at hunting Apatosaurs and other sauropods, taking down their prey by jumping in an bitng and riping at their prey with their jaws and their three fingered claws. Then, in the Cretacious, the dominant herbivores were ceratopsians and hadrosaurus (except in the supercontinent Gondwana, where sauruopods remained the dominant herbivores). The theropods then changed structure accordingly. From the three fingered Allosaurus with lightly built legs and the mediocre jaw power to the Tyrannosaur with the bone crushing biting power and muscular built legs. Theropods evolved larger, more muscular legs so they were able to outrun the fast hadrosaurs and ceratopsians and make a quick meal. Their bites also got harder so they could kill quickly and wouldn't have to do much running.

Gigantosaurus of South America, however, was more adept to killing sauropods even in the Creatacious, so it was designed differently than the T. Rex. It was built to run in and rip through the animals flesh with one bite then back off and let the prey bleed to death.

If theropods were scavengers, then why would they have needed to evolve? If they simply ate carrion, there would have been no need to change to be better suited to eating rotten flesh. (And no, animals don't evolve if they don't need to. Think of sharks. They've remained unchanged for a very long time.

"I also think that many carnivores were not nurturing parents. Unless the baby count is low, only 1-3, the animal would not have been able to keep up. probably they simply abandoned their young after they laid eggs, and the babies made like komodo Dragons and hid."

Sorry Jason, but that's not how I see it. Struthiomimus was one of the late cretacious Dinosaurs that looked like an ostrich. At first, people though that it ate eggs because it was in a position approaching one, but careful examination later revealed that this carnivore was actually acting much like a chicken and sitting on it's egg, keeping it warm until it hatched. I find this highly likely seeing the close relation between odern day birds and theropods.

Other theropods like Velociraptor, are thought to have lived in small packs or groups. If this is true, and that they did live in small groups, it is likely that they did raise young. Velociraptors and Troodonts were also as intelligent as modern birds of prey, so they would therfore operate in a similar way to these birds I. E. raising young, wouldn't you agree?

And when you said that a young animal would not have been able to keep up, did you ever think that perhaps theropods built nests like modern day birds and left their young their while the adult went hunting? And that it would stay that way until the young was old enough to "keep up?"

I'd say that i'm done now. Thanks for your time.
from Skeptic, age 13, ?, ?, Canadian and Proud!; September 3, 2001


i got one qusitoun that someone can please answer for me and it;s about sharks what was longer???Megaladon or a Whale Shark???
from Shark, age ???, ???, ???, ???; September 3, 2001


T-Rex vs. HHH? It's showtime baby!

Ok, lets see how this fight turns out! T-Rex is a 6-ton, 40-kph moving bloody locomotive with teeth that could smell you from 100 miles away, see with eyesight that rivaled and prehaps even bettered that of eagles, hear extremely low frequency noises that humans can't even dream of reaching, powerfully muscled with a stout but slight frame to generate intense busts of power along with a super powerful jaw that can bite at forces exceeding 3-tons in which the energy at the tip of the teeth would be more than the 25mm armour piercing rounds fired from the Apache chaingun. This animal could remove 210 kilos of meat in one bite, rend muscle, destroy bone, shred tissue and had a healthy store of awful baterial to make sure your bite becomes septic, the animal is also incredibly tough, known to be able to survive fractured necks, compound fractures of limbs, brain case penetrations, broken backs, and a bunch of other life-threatening injuries without compromising killing ability. This animal took on and defeated large and dangerous animals like the 9-ton Triceratops and other animals with extremely dangerous defences. All this versus a guy who weights about 200 pounds and is capable of wearing really flashy costumes and doing wrestling moves on other people who don't really gut hurt. I think I'll choose HHH...NOTTTTTT! T-Rex will massacare that guy!

Ok, lets look at the completely irrevelant fight between Bruce and HHH, though its more balanced, I'd say its still no fight.

See!!! See!!! This match, for the love of all things good, decent, and holy, can not continue.

However, since you did post it up, I'm gonna give it to Bruce. HHH is a bid mean guy who wears stupid costumes and acts really mean and dumb, true, but Bruce has these trumps:

1. Bruce is, to date, the only martial artist to create a new style of fighting: Jeet Kun Do (The Way of the Intercepting Fist). (And NO, Billy Blanks' Tae-Bo doesn't cut it!!) Jeet Kun Do states that one must flow over one's opponent, "like water", in order to defeat him. It allows for techniques from other styles of combat in order to aid the user in fighting. See, if you didn't know, Bruce MADE Jeet Kun Do, his art, SPECIFICALLY around his own physical parameters. My sensei has said he feels that due to Bruce's almost super-human strength and agility, it was, or in this case IS, nearly impossible to beat Bruce. His art was designed for him.

2.The man whose entire daily routine, from the moment he wakes up to the moment he goes back to sleep is dedicated to one form of training or other. The man whose entire body is honed for fighting (speed and power) NO wasted bulk. HHH on the other hand, bulks up to look impressive but most of this bulk is wasted (Who needs so much chest muscles when they are not used in fighting?) HHH is also a steriod abuser, that's a mark of a true fighter...NOTTTTT!

3.However, this takes place in a real life fight and there's one basic problem: HHH can't fight. Bruce Lee was an ultimate expert in martial arts; HHH knows a little bit but is trained as an a SHOWSMAN who had to bulk up for his role, not to actually fight! You might as well ask if an rat can beat a cat in a match. The rat may put up a fight for a bit, but can't win the fight.

4.Besides that, Bruce Lee managed to look tough while wearing a really silly costume in a Batman-spinoff in the 60's. That other guy might be some overbulked steriod abuser, but he always comes off as goofy, even when he's trying to look tough.

5. Now, let's look at Bruce Lee. First, he's trained in Wing Chun under the tutelage of Yip Man, one of the premier martial artists of his time. That's not good enough for Bruce, though. He gets fed up with how the martial arts are taught and develops HIS OWN MARTIAL ART of Jeet Kune Do. Not only this, but he perpetually meets challenges on the sets of his movies in order to prove he's the best on a daily basis, and he bests them all, even this racist wrestler who said he was all fake and wanted to show him some "real" moves on "riceboy". Guess what? This "riceboy" despite trying his best to avoid the fight as his displine states violence unless absolutely necessary, had to fight and kicked the butt of a wrestler 2 times his weight. Before you fire away in response to this, go real his biography, researched and done by a bunch of independent people, so no bias.

6. If it wasn't for the Little Dragon, then we Westerners would have never known about martial arts. Ipso facto, there would be no Street Fighter (tm), Mortal Kombat (tm), Dead or Alive (tm), and Jean-Claude Van Damme would still be a busboy in a Belgian restaurant. There would even be no WWF as the moves that we all see are actually copies (abbet, weak parodies) of martial arts moves, even the Pedigree is inspired by a move in Silat! But the Silat version is more deadly.

7. Bruce is built perfectly, not bulky. He has muscles on top of muscles, yet he moves with the finesse of a ballet dancer (hey! Much like T-Rex!). Those bruisers like HHH with bulky muscles can't move like that; they are too tight and clumsy. You must tuck your elbows in quickly when a blow is directed to your midsection Some bodybuilders and bruisers like HHH and Kurt are so bulky that they have no way to defend the solar plexus area with efficiency. They can't cover the area with their elbows, so when they use another method to protect it, they leave other parts of their body open. Weight training is supposed to help you, not screw you. But then again, these people were not prepairing for real fights, unlike Bruce.

8.Bruce also was the master of footwork. Proper footwork contributes to hitting power and your ability to avoid punishment. Good footwork will beat any kick or punch. A moving target is definitely more difficult to hit than a stationary one. The more skillful you are with your footwork, the less you have to use your arms to block or parry kicks and punches. By moving deftly, you can elude almost any blow and prepare your fists and feet to attack.

Besides evading blows, footwork allows you to cover distance rapidly, escape out of a tight corner and conserve your energy to counter with more sting in your punch or kick. A heavy slugger or grappler like HHH with poor footwork will exhaust himself as he futilely attempts to hit his opponent.

9."No style is the style, no limits is the limit" Was Bruce's approach to martial arts, he would incorporate everything, no matter what style. HHH however, is limited to whatever he is doing, which severly limits him.

10. And Bruce is certainly stronger, faster and tougher than HHH! Bruce's striking speed from 3 feet away from opponent was five hundredths of a second. Bruce could throw rice up into the air and then catch them in mid-air using chopsticks. Bruce could do push-ups using only 2 fingers (one arm). Bruce could thrust his fingers through unopened cans.(This was when soft drinks cans were made of steel) Bruce was able to burst a 100 lbs punching bag with a heavy sidekick. And best of all, Bruce once caved in a protective headgear made from heavy steel rods, rods that had previously withstood several blows from a sledgehammer. What do you think he can do to HHH's head?

11.Bruce was only interested in strength that he could readily convert to power. These huge bodybuilders like HHH have large arms and such but have problem converting their bulk to actual power quickly, no matter how strong they are.

12.Bruce was incredibly strong for his size. He could take a 75lb barbell and from a standing position with the barbell held flush against his chest, he could slowly stick his arms out, lock them and hold the barbell there for 20 seconds, that's pretty damn tough for a guy who at the time only weighed 138lbs. I know 200lb weight lifters who can't do that.

13.Bruce had a big heavy bag hanging out on his patio. It weighed 300lbs. Nobody could hardly move it at all. Bruce said to said to his friend once, while he was on a visit "Hey, Wally, watch this" and he jumped back and kicked it and this monster of a heavy bag went up to the ceiling, Thump!!! And came back down.

14.The power that Lee was capable of instantly generating was absolutely frightening to his fellow martial artists, especially his sparring partners, and his speed was equally intimidating. We timed him with an electric timer once, and Bruce's quickest movements were around five hundredths of a second, his slowest were around eight hundredths. This was punching from a relaxed position with his hands down at his sides from a distance between 18-24 inches. Not only was he amazingly quick, but he could read you too. He could pick up on small subtle things that you were getting ready to do and then he'd just shut you down. HHH can't even get off his move without Bruce stopping him before he can even make it!

...

Gee, sure sounds like a "gifited" movie guy...NOTTTT! He's a lean, mean, fighting machine that will rip through HHH like hot wire through smelly toufu. HHH's is way out of his league.

With that in mind, this isn't a match. It's a massacere, weather its against T-Rex or Bruce Lee.
from Mike Chin, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 3, 2001


Dilophosaurus main prey were smaller animals like Massopondylus, Anchisaurus, Scutellosaurus and Ammosaurus and he was have been pretty well equipped to kill them. Though Dilophosaurus is pathetic and primitive beside the other more technologically advanced dinosaurs like Allosaurus or Tyrannosaurus, he was still the meanest in his day. He faced little direct competition from other carnivores and would have had no trouble hunting. Beingte biggest thing around, he pretty much ate whatever he liked. Though if he EVER met Plateosaurus, that would be another story.
from Iona, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 3, 2001


"JP added to make Dilophasaurus seem all that more ferocious. I mean, If they put in the real Dilophasaurus, he wouldn't have been neraly as tettifying, would he? "

Actually, I think the real deal Dilo would have been a heck load meaner than the tiny one 6 foot one we see in JP. For starters he was 20 feet long and would have towered over Nendry. And he obviously didn't need that tough jaws to kill yet as the prey he hunted wasn't exactly that tough. The dinosaurs and large animals at that time hadn't really diversified and Dilo didn't have to kill that hard to kill his prey. But once the better and tougher designs came out, Dilo dropped out and went extinct, unable to compete. But in his time, he was the T.rex of his world. Having such weak jaws wasn't a disadvantage to Dilo...for a while that is.

On another point, I don't think Honkie was attacking your points at all, rather he was pointing out what he though of them.
from Leonard, age 14, ?, ?, ?; September 3, 2001


I have figured out that there is no way HHH can beat T.Rex.

You see, T.Rex, having such short arms, is already quite pissed with the refrences to his arms, and like Chewbaca, if he loses, he'll rip your arms out. Now, if T.Rex loses to HHH, HHH will lose his arms to T.Rex, and if HHH has lost his arms, he has obviously lost. Either way, T.Rex wins.
from Emar for the Socially Malajusted, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 3, 2001


"There is no doubt that Bruce Lee was more than an actor, in fact he was an amazing athlete and gymnast and a fine martial artist. Now, With that being said, riddle me this... "what world title did he hold?"

He was known as "Lee Xiao Long" Or the Dragon in Hong Kong and China (Which for your information, makes up 1 quarter of the world's population) and also as "Tian Sia Di Ei" or roughly translated, the World's Greatest Fighter. And this title was awarded to him before he was even an actor, or famous for his movies. Many of the finest martial artist today were thought by him and many more maintain he is the best, prehaps only second to Huang Fei Hong, the people's hero who would HAVE TOTALLY kicked HHH's or Kurt's butt without working a sweat. You seem to be taking your opinion from only the american market, which is weak, for just about the entire world thinks otherwise. Heck the opinion of China is enough to outweight you by 10 to 1. So much for your vote. Not to mention the best martial artists all come not from america (those in america are a spoit, wussy bunch), but from China and asia. Benny "The Jet" Urquidez (sorry, but if we asians don't know him, and he's supposed to be an martial artist, he's nobody real or special) would have look weak compaired to your typical mainland chinese martial arts exponent. HHH could bench press 600 pounds? Big deal, watch one of those Shao Lin people pull an entire 7,000 pound minibus with their ear. HHH is going downnnnnnnnn...
from Ming Li, age 18, Shanghai, ?, China; September 3, 2001


I think that by now T.Rex fans have presented enough evidence to show T.Rex would win in a fight between any other super predators. It was the most powerfully built, the strongest, the fastest and had the most powerful jaws with bone crushing teeth.
Anyway, I was recently watching a program on the national geographic channel on Sky, and most paeleontologists think T.Rex, as well as having a very good sense of smell, had depth perception in its vision. I thought this was pretty cool, seeing as T.Rex haters like saying T.Rex had bad eyesight.
If T.Rex was a scavenger, the whole ecosystem of the day would have been ruined. Firstly, no way would a creature as big as tyrannosaurus be able to survive on scavenged meat. He would have come across the meat to little to survive. As T.Rex was the biggest carnovore of its time, the only way he would find a dead Tryceratops etc... would be if one died of disease, as there were no carnovores big enopugh to take them down (As T.Rex was a scavenger). While there was a lot of disease in dinosaurs time, the amount of dead bodies from disease would still no way be enough to support 1000's of T.Rex's looking for food. T.Rex's would be getting wiped out from starvation. Think about it. A modern day scavenger, like the jackal, rarely scavenges an animal who is dead from disease. They normally eat from the left overs of animals who have been killed by the lions. If they just fed from diseased animals, there would no way be enough meat. With T.Rex, this is even worse, because there is no super predator to take out the herbivores. So the only way T.Rex could scavenge is if an animal died of natural causes. Like I said, there would simply not be enough dead animals around to support the T.Rex's.
The second point about the ecosystem thing is that as there would be no predator to eat them, the big herbivores would thrive. The plant life would suffer greatly, as with so many herbivores around to eat them, they would simply be completely eaten. Eventually, the plants would just get wiped out, because the number of big herbivores around would be astronomical. The plants would die, which meant the herbivores would die. With no herbivores left to reproduce, there would be a lack of new meat for the scavengers, so when the dead animals have all been eaten, the carnovores would be wiped out too. Hey, maybe that's how dinosaurs became extinct!(sarcasm)
Next point. If T.Rex was just a scavenger, why would he be so big! There would be no need for him to be this size, it would just meen he needed a lot of meat to survive, and it would slow him down than if he was smaller. What big carnovores today are scavengers? None, because it is bad for the animal. The bigger they are, the more meat they need to survive. Like I said, there would be too many T.Rex's needimng a lot of meat, and not enough dead herbivores.
Finally, why would T.Rex have such large teeth made for crushing bone if it just needed to rip rotting flesh? Why would it have such strong jaws? Surely, to be perfectly adapted to be a scavnger, it would have dagger like teeth to rip flesh. What use would it be to crush bone when the animal is dead? And what use would a strong bite be if the only thing you are biting into is rotting flesh?

Anyway, those are my reasons to prove it was practically impossible for T.Rex to be a scavenger. Yes, he would have scavenged if ghe found a dead animal. Which predator wouldn't? But the fact is, T.Rex was adapted to hunt and kill, and there simply wasn't enough dead animals around to support it if it was a scavenger anyway.
from Neil.S, age 15, ?, ?, UK; September 3, 2001


"just like humans are in the process of losing there toes, as they are no longer of use. when we were apes and we used the toes as second hands to climbthrough trees as you see orang utans etc doing today.
but as we became more inteligent we lost the need for the toes so we r currently in the process of losing them."

I don't think we're in the process of losing toes. Being born without toes gives absolutetly no survival advantage, and does not make the human more attractive to potential mates. For humans with easy access to enough food, it isn't a big deal to supply energy to a 'useless' part. Being a human without toes would be a bad thing, IMHO. I think my does do help me in walking and running and yes, even climbing when I want to.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; September 2, 2001


"Tyrannosaurus is certainly the undisputed champino of bite force, but we should be aware of the fact that sharks are relatively weak biters, your typical 2 meter shark does not bite any harder than you can clamp your hand. The main damage is derived from the shark shaking and twisting it's entire body violently while it's teeth are in the prey. Sharks use their teeth like saw blades.
The bite of the Great White shark, however, is a different case. thses animals bite harder than your typical shark and are capable of penetrating the protective mesh suit that renders you invulnerable to virtuallr any other shark bite. Great Whites do bite hard, but they don't come anywhere near Tyrannosaurus."

When I think of the word shark, the vision of a Great White shark swimming towards me is what comes to mind, and though I can't say the same for you, I'm sure that many other people think the same way. So when I was saying "unmatched by even sharks today," I was thinking of those powerful prdators of the deep, not the wimpy 2 meter ones (I don't think anyone would compare those to a Tyrannosaur, especially not a Tyrannosaur fan like myself).

Next, Great White sharks may not bite nearly as hard as a Tyrannosaur, but they're bites are the closest to it of any living species today. All I was trying to do was to compare a Tyrannosaur's bite to the hardest biting creature of today in a sentence. I'm sorry that you couldn't grasp that. Next time I'll write my messages so they're easier to understand, okay?

"Personally, I think that Jurassic Park actually downplayed "Dilophasaurus" and kinda messed up the reconstruction of the animal entirely. For one thing, he wasn't anythingthat small. You could explain it with the idea that JP guys are making a young Dilo, but there was serios errors in the reconstruction of Mr. D. There is no, I repeat absolutely no deployable frill, and the articulation of the neck would have made the erectinos of the frill impossible. And there is no evidence to suggest Dilo was venemous, he wasn't more likely to be that way than any other dinosaur. And lastly, he was the largest predator of his time, so I can't figure out a reason for him to be venemous. Despite popular opinion, he was almost certainly a predator too! He was the meanest thing of his time.

"...Dilophasaurus and kinda messed up the reconstrucion of the animal entirely..." how can you mess up Dilophasaurus' construction "kinda" and "entirely" at the same time? (If you want to point out my little gramatical errors, then I'll point out yours). Anyway.

Downplayed? What? Dilophasaurus wasn't downplayed. He may of been smaller than he really was, but all those inconsistencies you mentioned were those frills that JP added to make Dilophasaurus seem all that more ferocious. I mean, If they put in the real Dilophasaurus, he wouldn't have been neraly as tettifying, would he? They may not have been real, but Honkie Tong, lets remember that Jurassic Park is Hollywood and they're just trying to make money by creating an entertaining movie.

However unlikely it is, there is also still a chance that Dilophasaurus had that venom (though the odds still are 1,000,000 to 1 and I'm not saying he had it). Many scientists point out that Dilophasaurus had weak jaws which would not have been suitable for killing. Dilophasaurus probably used his claws and legs to kill, which would have done better on sauropodomorphs than jaws for Diplophasaurus. But if Dilophasaurus had also hunted small predators like Coelophysis, a technique for spitting venom could have come in handy, allowing him to kill from afar. Dilophosaurus crest was also very fragile and rather than risk having it harmed in battle it may have helped Dilophasaurus to kill from afar. Still, there is no rock solid evidence that Dilophosaurus posessed such capabilities.

And no, Honkie Tong, it is not almost certain that Dilophasaurus was a predator. He may have been the largest carnivore from that area in the Triassic that we know of, but let's remember that it's possible that there are larger early Triassic theropods undiscovered and that Triassic fossil of such things are hard to come by at best (though there are 12 Dilophasaur skeletons). As I mentioned above, Dilophasaurus' double-crest was also very fragile, and it would have been a difficult thing to protect in battle with prey. Dilophasaurus' jaws were also quite weak, and would have been better suited for ripping through long dead flesh, sugeesting that Dilophasaurus was a scavenger. Even without the frills JP added, Dilophosaurus was still an intimidating foe for other Triassic creatures and could have easily scared away smaller predators, then feasting on their kill.

Personally, though, I think Dilophasaurus was a predator, not a scavenger. Perhaps it's because his current image reminds me of what scientist thought of T. Rex afew years back. I don't think, though, that he possesed venemou qualities, though it is not imossible like you made it out to be. The only reason I bothered reply to your attack was that I was only trying to answer someone's question, and I stand by that answer, and defend my point of view. I thought that a fellow T. Rex fan might actually support my reply using the shark comparison as well, but sadly I was wrong. Well, think I've done a pretty good job of defending my ideas, though next time I'll try to be more clear in my answer so I won't have to do so again.
from Skeptic, age 13, ?, ?, Canadian and proud; September 2, 2001


Hmmm, maybe lots of the large predators were mainly scavengers, because it took less energy. I mean, it would be a heck of a lot of trouble for such huge animals to go on the hunt to meet its needs. The larger the animal the more energy it needs to maintain itself. Teenage carnivores might hunt more activeley, and the larger adults would simply steal and scavenge, hunting only when they saw fit.

I also think that many carnivores were not very nurturing parents. Unless the baby count was low, only 1-3, the animal would not be able to keep up. Probably they simply abandoned their young after they laid the eggs, and the babies made like Komodo Dragons and hid.

It's quite flattering you are all still willing to talk about my spider comparisons.
from Jason, age 13, Dayton, Ohio, USA; September 2, 2001


dangit people stop arguing with eachother we will never know who would win a fight between them all are estimates and guesses but have we actually ever seen tyrannosaurus vs. gigantosaurus my whole site is preety much a guess I dont know if there would be an alternate ending maybe tyrannosaurus would lose every time maybe win everytime. We will never know who would win in a fight against them you guys need to stop arguing and relax I think every single dinosaur is cool and you should to dont say things that people might find offensive like tyrannosaurus was a scavenger but do you really know that? have you seen him do that? does spinosaurus only eat fish? i dont know maybe probably who knows? tell me hhuh who knows? and as for you people who are ruing our forum you know hwo you are the wwf fans go to another forum this is something I DO KNOW TYRANNOSAURUS WOULD eat HHH easily step on him and even the people who think tyrannosaurus is a scavenge! r would think he could just step on him bite him there are millions of things he could do to HHH im really tired of that crap please stop and go to a wwf message board and express your dinosaur vs HHH lies but not here not ever again

I hope you guys took this message well cause im tired of the fights and dont say Gigantosaurus kills tyrannosaurus say I think gigantosaurus could kill tyrannosaurus that way you express your opionion and everyone should be happy
THIS IS MY OPIONION AND IF YOU INSULT ME FOR THIS MAN YOUR PATHETIC

from DinoFight, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 2, 2001


"By the way homke Tong, your messages still don't prove that T. Rex could beat Tyrannosaurus."

Actually, in my opinion, Honkie Tong has done an excellent job of proving that T. Rex could beat Gigantosaurus. He has presented his case in a well mannered fasion and has shown the rest of us what kind of a predator T. Rex really was.

It seems you have been ignoring what he has been saying and you continue to believe in your own little fantasy that Gigantosaurus can beat T. Rex. You want proof? I'll show you proof.

As I have mentioned many a time, Gigantosaurus had long slim teeth which were shorter than T. Rex's. While T. Rex's were designed to crack bone, Gigantosaurus' were designed to cut flesh. Gigantosaurus would run in, take a bite to rip open the flesh of it's prey in weakpoints, then back off and watch the prey bleed to death.

If Gigantosaurus tried this meathod on T. Rex, chances were T. Rex would bite him in the neck when he would get too close, killing Gigantosaurus. If gigantosaurus did get a bite in, and was lucky enough to get away alive(which was highly unlikely, seeing as Honkie Tong told us earlier that T. Rex could bite with high accuracy) T. Rex could catch up easily.

How would T. Rex catch up to Gigantosaurus? Well T. Rex had powerfully built legs made for running, and his stride ranged from 12 to 14 feet, while Gigantosaurus had abou the same stride but less muscular legs, though he weighed about the same if not a little more than T. Rex. Either way, T. Rex would have caught up and snapped Gigantosarus' neck.

There's just one more thing I want to state before I wrap up here. Gigantosaurus had very little places where he could have bit T. Rex effectively. On T. Rex, there are two weakpoints: 1. The neck. The neck, however, was heavily muscled and Gigantosaurus would have been bitten by T. rex if he went for the neck. 2. The belly. This places sounds vulnerable, but interestingly enough, there was a row of rib shaped bones supporting the under belly. These were called gastralia. If Gigantosaurus bit the belly, he may have opened a small would, but his teeth would have snapped these bones were so hard (don't believe me about these bones? Sue had some, her set was 70% complete. Need more convincing? Check out Volume 197,number 6 of National Geographic).

So simply, there was no way Gigantosaurus could win. If T. Rex didn't snap his neck before he bit, he would after.
from Skeptic, age 13, ?, ?, "I am Canadian!!!"; September 2, 2001


What`s All The Talk About HHH?
from euoplacephulas, age 8, Alta, CA, USA; September 2, 2001


By the way,Honkie Tong,you'r messages still don't prove t.rex would beat giganotosaurus.
from Sean S., age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A.; September 2, 2001


Honkie Tong,why do you have to be so hard to get along with? Stop making fun of my favorite dinosaur! There's no need to make fun of other people's favorite dinosaur. If you want to play stupid games,I can play stupid games,too! If you post another picture,making fun of allosaurus,...! (Don't you have anything,better to do,than this?) I'm not going to let you get away,with this! (People who make fun of dinosaurs,are &*%)(*7!)
from Sean S., age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A.; September 2, 2001


I agree completely with Skeptic and Honky Tong on the T.Rex things. they have given hard facts. the 20,000 newtons of bite force for T.Rex is conservative, meaning it was certainly more powerful.
T.Rex was evolved from all the great meat eaters, so it was the ultimate predator. the arms were obvioulsy no longer of any use for it, so it was in the evolutionary process of losing them. just like humans are in the process of losing there toes, as they are no longer of use. when we were apes and we used the toes as second hands to climbthrough trees as you see orang utans etc doing today. but as we became more inteligent we lost the need for the toes so we r currently in the process of losing them. with T.Rex, they were evolved from allosaurus etc...they needed the arms to help take down the big prey. but as carnovores evoled in say, T.Rex, they didn't need the arms cos they were bigger, stronger and had a much more powerful bite, possibly up to 30,000 newtons. so anti T.Rex fans can't really use the arms as a reason for T.Rex being weak, as there r big reasons for him losing the arms throughout evolution to become the ultimate predator.
also, to say the facts that T.Rex fans use r fake is (*&)*()&.

from Neil.S, age 15, ?, ?, UK; September 2, 2001


I've oftened wondered why the T.Rex fans had no problem trashing the anti-rexers like Sean, Jason, Spino fans, Stego fans and wrestling fans so easily and without much effort, and even making their case solidier to boot. I think I've finally located their secret to sucess to something as mundane as this: They praticed good critial thinking. I've summed up below why the anti-rexers failed mostly, as a bunch, not saying that the T.Rex fans have not commited some of these mistakes below, but they have their stuff generally together, while the anti-rexers and Jason show weak critial thinking indeed...

Critical Thinking

One of our natural tendencies is to believe what wish to be true. Unfortunately, our desires often conflict with the real situation. Spotting inconsistencies in our own and others arguments, ideas, and positions is important if you are interested in being fooled by neither yourself nor by others. Some people (anti-rexers) will try to fool you, and you will see others fooling themselves (anti-rexers). But always remember that the purpose of critical thinking is to find the truth, not to ridicule others.

Some Thinking References

Although you must practice critical thinking to get good at it, an examination of the common pitfalls in non-critical thinking can help you along the way.

Several good, descriptions of faulty arguments and logic of the pitfalls can be found in the books

The Demon-Haunted World, Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan

Why People Believe in Weird Things, Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of our Time by Michael Shermer

An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding by David Hume.
Bad Arguments - Avoiding the Burden of Proof

Assuming the truth without evidence.

Drawing conclusions from inadequate evidence or making hasty judgments. (Giganotosaurus had septic bite cos it went for the whole bunch)
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc, which translates roughly as it happened after, so it must be caused by.
Related to the above is the tendency of people to have selective memories - in essence to forget the usual but remember the unusual.
(Saying T.Rex must have been a scavenger, while forgetting clear evidence of it hunting)
Related to our selective memories is our over-interpretation of coincidence, which is rooted in our generally poor grasp of probability and chance.

Bad Arguments - Avoiding the Issue

Another common characteristic of faulty thinking is to avoid the true issue. Some of the types of misguided thinking that fits this category are

Ad hominem - arguing against an individual, not the individuals position. Focus on the argument, not the arguer. (Sean's constant insults agaisnt T.Rex fans which never seem to focus on the points at all, making his posts a bane to read.)
Ad Ignorantiam - support for an argument cannot be rooted in ignorance of the real answer. Or, just because you cant disprove something doesn't mean that it must be true.
Proving another position wrong does not make your position right.
Considering only the extreme cases - ignoring the middle ground. Not all problems have solutions that are extreme, often the middle ground is the best we can do. (I've noticed Giganotosaurus and Spino fans always go for "optimal" conditions and unlikely extreme cases where their dinosaur would be advantage to prove their point. On the other hand, Rexers always pick middle ground and conservative points, and still prove the advantage)

Bad Arguments - Avoiding Responsibility

Also common are ways of passing on the responsibility your to investigate and find the truth

Over reliance on authority - authorities have been wrong positions must be supported by evidence. (Horner overqouting is all too common)
We just dont understand - There are many things we dont understand, but just because we dont understand something doesnt mean that we can claim it must be supernatural intervention.

Bad Arguments - Faulty Logic

non-sequitir - it doesnt follow. You base your argument on an unrelated fact. (Jason's equating T.Rex using its smell not for predatory purposes because Deers did not do so)
Carrying an argument to a ridiculous extreme. (Spinosaurus being able to take on Tyrannosaurus, after an amazing series of lucky and impossible breaks that would never have happened in real life.)
Circular Reasoning - when your conclusion is nothing but a restatement of one of your assumptions. (The painful "Longer Jaw" argument that kept coming back on the assumption that "longer is clear advantage", after the Rexers have disproved it rather extensively as neglectable)

Some Common Problems With Pseudoscience Arguments

In pseudoscience, some problems are associated with:

Scientific language does not make science (Jason's almost-scientific report on how spiders would have been agile but T.Rex would have been not, based on spider morphlogy that is clearly rubbish)
Bold statements does not make truth (The annoying "HHH could defeat T.Rex!")
Heresy does not equal correctness
Unexplained is not Inexplicable
Anecdotes do not make science
Rumors do not equal reality ( Sean's annoying "I'm sure there will be bigger Giganotosaurus" arguments)

Some Common Problems in Scientific Thinking

Theory Influences Observations (Jason T.Rex must have been a scavenger, because of its good nose while ignoring the fact that it would have been fantastic for hunting and that T.Rex had other hunting-related adaptations too.)
The Observer Changes the Observed
Equipment Constructs Results

Good Thinking Practices

The goal is not to come up with an idea we like, but one that follows from the starting premise and matches the evidence. Here's a list of some good thinking practices:

Encourage debate and seek out alternative points of view
Construct more than one hypothesis to match the evidence. Beware untestable hypotheses - they cannot be used for the basis of critical reasoning.
Dont get overly attached to an idea because it is yours, be fair and keep an open mind. (I've observed that Rexers do not reject ideas by their opponents out of hand, but rather condisering it carefully and explaining why it cannot work before doing so. Anti-rexers simply insult and blast their way out, saying everythignt he Rexers say are wrong)
Avoid vague statements and ideas, be specific and if possible quantify your hypotheses. (Rexers go into detail in their points, proving it rather convincingly and clearly while the points of Jason, Sean and anti-rexers in generla are vague and never gone into detail)

If an argument is sequential, make sure every step in the sequence is based on solid evidence and reasoning. (Rexers explain ever point carefulyl and clearly and made sure it proved before moving on, anti-rexers like Sean or Jason simply blast through a whole list of points, most of which are paper-thin when put up to scrunity...Allosaurus had claws harder than Steel????)

Remember that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. If several solutions are viable, and you have to choose just one, choose the simplest. (I've notice that Rexers rarely mentioned T-imperator despite the fact that it would have given them an even larger lead, instead, they prefer to argue from the point of better understood specimens yet, till the new one has been described. Spino and Giganotosaurus fans on the other hand, are already starting to go miles and miles based on shaky holotype material)

I don't even have to go on...
from Peter, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 2, 2001


Hee hee, how can HHH even pedrigree a T-Rex? His legs can't even fit around a T-Rex head and even if he managed to do that, he would not be able to touch the ground. And not to mention that, how can he he even perform the move when he can't even lift the T-Rex. If he brought his weight down, he'll be hanging off the T-Rex head, and the T-Rex will just be wondering what the heck this incredibly stupid moron is doing on his head. With a quick flick of the head, T-Rex could either fling HHH on a rough ride incribing a 30-foot parabolic curve terminating with an abrubt loss in velocity on contact with the ground, or simply flick his head up so that HHH falls into his mouth and CRUNCH!!! HHH is a new brand of crispy cereal. Or if T-Rex was flamboyant, he could could grab HHH with his jaw not too hard as to kill him, and using his head like a sledgehammer, piledrive HHH into the ground. If the ground was concrete, HHH would be splattered into an ugly mess. If the ground was soil, HHH would be sticking out of the ground with his head buried in it, dead. If the ground was the wrestling ring, HHH might just survive long enough for T-Rex to tear him limb from limb or climb up the ring, perches for a while like a 6-ton bird of prey, and then jump onto him. Sorry, though I have seen HHH survive 200 pound people jumping on him, a 14,000 pound T-Rex would kill him outright (he could even die of fright before the T-Rex lands on him). Might as well drop a truck on him. The wrestling ring is destroyed but T-Rex is unharmed and it takes them twenty hours to recover HHH's remains from the wreskage. HHH is just Hunter something somthing. T-Rex is Super Tyranno Death Lizard King of the Archosauria. HHH couldn't even beat Alligator Americanus without taking serious injuries, and if HHH can't even do that with one of the Super Tyranno Death Lizard King of the Archosauria's minons, I won't even mention how horribly he is going to die agains't T-Rex. Even the Death Star vs. TIE fighter sounds mroe reasonable.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 2, 2001


"This is the awesome and deadly Pedigree, his finishing move (imagine him doing this to a T.Rex! Ha Ha)"

I can't, I've seen a heck load of cool wrestling moves, including the pedigree, but how can he even bulge the Tyrannosaurus, much less manulipate it into finishing position for the move? If anything, the T-Rex will only peer at him curiously as he grunts and strains and beats away at the 6-ton animal before the Tyrannosaurus decides to take a curious nibble to see if HHH was edible, with fatal results to the wrestler...T.Rex in 1 minute and 2 seconds (1 minute spent looksing curiously at HHH). And how can HHH even get close enough to the Tyrannosaurus without him being sued his butt off by PETA activists (Lawyers are the most powerful force in America, not even HHH is a match for them), or being restrained and arrested by Navy Seals holding MP-5s hired by the WWF to keep HHH away from the T.Rex for his own good, and to actually have a HHH to flim the next Royal Rumble. Face it, animal rights and fear of ligitation are such powerful forces today that T.Rex wins even without having to fight, and if he does manage to fight, HHH would be in for taking a can of Whup-Arse (tm.) up his arse anyway! What next? A WWF Donate Blood and money to save HHH's life charity run?

Hmm...I'm not too sure about the death touch being fake either, I'm read about it been documented and studied scientifically. (And I actually saw it being demostrated in Gunisses Primetime as part of a world record, all with doctors and medics around to certify real damage was being done.) I don't know much about Bruce, but I believe he's held worldwide to be the "Greatest Fighter of all Time, the Dragon." That's his' title I think (I read his biography and other sources before). Besides, it wouldn't be fair to say he didn't have any acomplishments, the time he was in America was a very poor environement for any form of asian culture indeed (think the lable "Yellow Peril"), heck it was even befroe the intergration days! Bruce had real talent, but he was only grudging reconized by the us white Americans back then. Even then, he was downplayed, much like Doris Miller, the Pearl Harbour Hero, the bravest hero of Pearl Harbour who only got a Navy Cross for his heroism due to racial discrimination, when he should have recieved a Medal of Honour, and everybody, even the people award "higher" offical honours for heroism in Pearl Harbour agreed that Miller should have gotten more, and was the best among them. Bruce supposedly not being "reconized" for anything is almost certianly the result of racial discrimination here. If you go to China, Hong Kong, or anypart of asia, you'll see that he's fantastically reconized there. Even the martial arts exponents you mentioned would have agreed that Bruce was the best. More and more people are starting to reconise Bruce and I think its the best for you to give Bruce the glory he deserved, instead of using an age-old racial discrimation factor to advance your agenda, that's the lowest of the low way you can do things.

Besides, I don't see how this Bruce vs. HHH thing is revelant to T-Rex vs HHH, it dosen't affect the outcome at all, in which HHH, despite being such a badass, it reduced to an ugly lump of T-Rex turd. The odds of HHH even having anywhat of an advantage in the short match we expect to see between these two combatants are simply astronomical that I feel would lucky buying lottery tickets.
from Jesse, age 13, ?, ?, ?; September 2, 2001


Oh for god sakes let's just face that a T-rex was killed by a Spinosaurus in Jurassic park 3. Perhaps the T-rex will return if there's a Jurassic park 4. Let's talk about something else to do with Dinosaurs!
from Will, age 13, ?, ?, United kingdom; September 2, 2001


Doess anyone know where I can find a list of every tyrrannosaurus found and there size?

well IM just curious but if you want to read some comparissons go to
www.dinofights.cjb.net

from Dinofight, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 1, 2001


For HHH fans, some super-cool animations....

This is the awesome and deadly Pedigree, his finishing move (imagine him doing this to a T.Rex! Ha Ha)
http://www.hhhfans.com/multimedia/gif/HHHpedigreesBulldog.gif
http://www.hhhfans.com/multimedia/gif/hhhpedjob.gif

HHH's ring entrance video
http://www.hhhfans.com/multimedia/gif/hhhtitantron.gif

HHH is the Game!!!
from HHH, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 1, 2001


There is no doubt that Bruce Lee was more than an actor, in fact he was an amazing athlete and gymnast and a fine martial artist. Now, With that being said, riddle me this... "what world title did he hold?"

The answer is none.

A better small fighter that did compete against heavyweights and win in those days of real full contact Karate was the incomprible Byong Yu (5ft 6in 150 pounds) but he in the end found that despite his amazing ability he got knocked out by Joe Lewis and Monster Man 'Eddie Erverette' and never took the world title.

An even better small fighter was Benny The Jet Urquidez who did take the world heavyweight full contact title at a height of about 5ft6 or 7 and a weight of 165 pounds.The jet was amazing but even he states the **axiom of fighting**.... "if all things are equal a good big man will beat a good little one"

Chuck Norris would have mopped up the ring with bruce lee as well.

Think that Bruce lee could have ever beaten Bill 'Super foot' Wallace? Or Brad Hefton? Not a chance.

Bruce lee never fought any of those guys because he would have ended up as a little fighter beaten by better little fighters and would have taken the full count in a horrizontal position down and out for good. The Korean Master and full contact fighter Buong yu challenged Bruce Lee many times and Lee refused.

Bruce Lee perhaps could have been a great lightweight KO Karate fighter that MIGHT have been able to rumble with some middelweights and (possibly) a few light heavies in the ring but to say that he was one of the greatest fighters of the 20th century is a load of garbage.

Mr Lee was a great teacher, thinker, artist, actor, chacha dancer and coreographer but he was never a professional fighter and never took a full contact title.

He did however develop Jeet Kun do which is a practical collection of applying many different martial arts to street situations. In many ways what he created is not unlike the very practical forms of ED Parkers Kempo and Doshin so's Shorinji Kempo.

About that one inch punch... well, I gotta tell ya pal, Bruce couldntt have knocked the wind out of Chuck Norris with it. Or HHH, or whoever. If anyone really believes all the Bruce Lee hype, I have a suggestion for them, read lots of comic books and be sure to order the 'Dim Mak' Death Touch via a vibrating palm book that is often sold in the back pages of those fine perodicals along with stink bombs, x ray glasses,and plans for an antigravity engine.

My final point: To apply pure fantasy to Bruce lee is to demean the true greatness of his character and skills he was a great martial artist, Teacher, and thinker but he NEVER proved that he was even a good fighter in the KO karate ring. His speed and and coordination were fantastic and in a street fight he could and was very adept at pummeling larger slower less well trained opponents. But his powress in the ring is unknown hence the title of worlds greatest fighter is a joke.

Want to read about a fighter that just might fill the bill as the greatest martial artist ~pound for pound~ of the 20th century
check out Benny "The Jet" Urquidez.

But even he would tell you- an accomplished grappler, such as Kurt Angle or HHH, will beat a martial artist ~every time~, esp. a much smaller one such as Bruce Lee.
from Stern, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 1, 2001


Hmmm, Bruce Lee vs the worlds greatest freestyle wrestler and gold medalist Kurt Angle.... Lee wouldn't have a chance. He'd be screaming in pain from an ankle-lock in 2 seconds. Even if he could somehow get a punch or kick in, Kurt wouldn't even feel it. Bruce Lee was just a movie-boy. Kurt actually went out and did something. Won a gold medal, amatuer championships and the WWF title.

I've never seen a martial artist beat a wrestler in a mixed martial arts competition. Ever. Period. Enough said.

And HHH could probaly beat Angle. He's not as quick but he's far stronger (he has a bench press of 700 pounds.... the world record is 800 and something) and has a whole arsenal of moves. He is a multiple time amatuer wrestling champ, the pinical of "real" wrestling, in additon to multiple time WWF champ. He's know for being able to take ungodly amounts of punishment. he once tore his quad (the big muscle in your leg) and still finished the match... including giving wrestler Chris Jericho a pedigree. the tear was later discovered to be 12 inches long! the doctor said 99.9% of the population would pass out from such pain. HHH is the game. straight up.

http://www.triplehgalleries.com/gallery17-3.jpg (the devasting pedigree)
http://www.triplehgalleries.com/gallery17-5.jpg
http://www.triplehgalleries.com/gallery17-1.jpg
http://www.triplehgalleries.com/gallery17-2.jpg

Ha Ha. Ross rules. He showed you people that have been monopolizing the board with all the T.Rex garbage. For all of you that don't know, the UFC is "real" fighting were boxers take on sumo who take on martial artists who take on wrestlers etc. etc. You can rent them in any Blockbuster. And yes, wrestlers always win while the "martial artists" do rather poorly. Whill the outcome of WWF matches are indeed "fake" the skills those wrestlers have are very, very real. Kurt Angle won the Olympic Gold Medal in freestyle wrestling while HHH is a national champ. Either would wipe the floor with the tiny Bruce Lee who was about 5 feet tall and 150 pounds and jumped around and kicked for movie cameras. Ha Ha Ha.

The perpetuation of the lie that HHH was in some bar fight shows how desperate T.Rex fans are. That is total fabrication. I would like for a T.Rex fan to post ONE news link that confirms this. But it won't happen as it is a lie. Or maybe T.Rex fans are so dim-witted as to confuse "HBK" with "HHH" ? They're dimwitted enough to like a big buzzard. Just like all the "facts" to "show" how T.Rex would beat Spino etc. are all made up, it's laughbale. T.Rex fans are a joke in the dino community. All they do is lie to help support the big scavenger.

Bruce Lee = a overrated, tiny, movie boy who could kick his little legs for the camera really fast. he could jump too. wow.

Jackie Chan = same as above

Kurt Angle = an Olymipc gold medalist who beat the worlds best

HHH = National amatuer champ, undefeated in the NCCA's

Ken Shamrock = the "worlds most dengerous man", UFC champion

summary.... WFF rules while tiny little martial artists get blown away by size, strength and speed grpplers like Kurt Angle and HHH. Ha Ha Ha.

Honkie Tong, you are the worst T.Rex homer here. All of you guys should start up your own "T.Rex Only" site. And what in the devil are you talking about? Oooooo.... that sounds sooooo bad. Ha Ha. Actually it was sorta funny. Like I said, go rent any mixed martial arts competition video or PPV and see how the wrestlers fare.... they DOMINATE. "Small and graceful", huh? Um, ok. That'll be useful when you're tapping out to a ankle-lock or a arm-bar. Size does matter dude, sorry. That's just life. Only good strikers (e.g. boxers) have done well against wrestlers... when getting a lucky shot in. But an experienced wrestler will take an opponet to the ground immeditly where it will be all over in a matter of seconds.

I suggest people stop talking about things they have no clue about. Want to see what happens when equally high skilled fighters of all disciplines get it on? Rent any UFC or other mixed competition. It's not that hard. Seeing for yourselves should hopefully mean alot more than listening to some people babble on a message board.

Honkie, I enjoyed the "small and graceful" thing... very amusing. It made me think of Royce Gracie... the world-reknown jiu-jitsu master and king of the "small and graceful" camp. He was UFC champ for a while, until he met his first real grappler by the name of Ken Shamrock (now in the WWF and still a MMA competitor) who wiped the floor with him. Gracie has since lost to several other grapplers he's faced. The UFC soon became domianted by grapplers. Ken Shamrock, by the way, has been beat several times by HHH in MMA compitetions.

And I laugh when uneducated non-sport, non-MMA fans dis the WWF... Ken Shamrock has beat every major martial artist there is to beat, yet in the WWF he's only about #5. Kurt Angle being probably the baddest legit fighter in the WWF, then HHH, Al Snow, Rob Van Dam, then Ken Shamrock.

The aquired highley developed skills of Shamrock and HHH are so much more impresssive than the smelling ability and armlessness of the overgrown buzzard T.Rex. I guess it's just sour grapes, huh.

I guess T.Rex fans will continue to make up lies to support their giant scavenger, while people actually looking for truth will seek it out. Not much changes.

ps - Just a even profecient wrestler will beat a top-level martial artist everytime. People that say otherwise.... please explain why in the UFC (where anything but eye-gouging goes i.e. you can break bones etc.) why the wrestlers ALWAYS WIN??? Ken Shamrock, a mid-level WWF guy, whooped up on martial artists multiple times. Including the Gracie brothers, the most respected jiu-jitsu clan in the world. I'm tired of people making stuff up, **video tape doesn't lie**

Wrestlers rule in real fights. Leave the martial arts to the movie boys.
from Triple-H, age ?, ?, ?, ?; September 1, 2001


Honkie Tong,if you don't make fun of my favorite dinosaur,I won't make fun of you'r favorite dinosaur.(Do we have a deal?)
from Sean S., age 13, ?, ?, U.S.A. ,and proud of it; September 1, 2001


"Honkie Tong,if you ever post another picture like that,I will post a picture of Sue being nailed to a cross! Believe me,you'r not going to be very happy.(If you don't clean up you'r act,i'll do it!) Don't say I didn't warn you."

*Yawns* Juvinile...juvinile...hmm what's up next? I think I could do one of Big Al's fateful trip...
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 1, 2001


">full skeleton has been found."

Nope, no full specimens of Spinosaurus have even been recovered. The so-called "latest discovery" is refering to extremely fragmentary evidence.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 1, 2001


"Capable of out running any of those herbivores you mentioned and able to exert a force from his jaws still unmatched by even sharks today, I think Tyrannosaurus rex deserves al the respect we give him."

Tyrannosaurus is certianly the undisputed champion of bite force, but we should be aware of the fact that sharks are relatively weak biters, your typical 2-meter shark does not bite any harder than you can clamp your hand, the main damage is derived from the shark shaking and twisting its entire body violently while its' teeth are in the prey, sharks use their jaws like saw blades.

The bite of the Great White shark however, is a special case. These animals bite much harder than your typical shark, and are capable of penetrating the protective meshsuit that can render you invulnerable too virtually any other shark. Great Whites do bite hard, but thy don't come anywhere near to Tyrannosaurus, whose normal feeding bite force figure hovers at 13,000 newtons, a force that it could reach with minimal effort. On an attack bite, in which the Tyrannosaurus is biting at its maximum effort, the results would have been horrendus for the victim. Even with a conservative estimate of 20,000 newtons, Tyrannosaurus would have bitten through anything he wanted to kill, be it a hip bone, neck, or skull. As you can see, it's very unlikely indeed that Spinosaurus would have even survived the Tyrannosaurus bite to its neck for more than a second at all, unlike shown in Jurassic Park 3.

That's JP for you.

That's JP3 for you.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 1, 2001


"Although it is possible that one day an exceptional Dilophasuar may be found with remains and/or marks of poison coming from it, I think this is incredibly unlikely. The Jurassic Park 3 writers just wanted to spice up this average sized theropod, and make it more scary than it really was."

Personally I feel that Jurassic Park actually downplayed "dilophosaurus" and kinda messed up the reconstruction of the animal entirely. For one thing, he wasn't anything that small, you could explain it away with the idea that the JP guys are making a young Dilo, that's good, but there has been serious errors in their reconstruction of Mr.D. There is NO, I repeat, Absoutely no deployable frill, and the articulation of the neck would have made the errection of the frill impossible. And there is absolutely no evidence to suggest Dilo was venomous, he wasn't more likely than any other dinosaur to be that way. And lastly, he was the largest predator of his time, so I can't figure out a reason for him to use vemon. Despite popular opinion, he was almost certainly a predator too! He was the meanest thing in his time.

That's JP for you.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 1, 2001


"temperature regulator on it's back so it could heat up and go hunting early and go hunting."

Hmm, I seriosuly doubt that the sail on Spinosaurus is any kind of heat regulator to allow it to warm up fast in the morning. Firstly, being such a massive animal, he would not have problems retaining heat via gigantothermy, which would have been more efficent, and a temperature regulating sail will simply increase surface area, even if Spinosaurus was poikilothermic, I doubt this would be a factor. If anything, a sail as a heat-regulation device would be a disadvantage during cold nights (which you tend to get in the desert), as the increased surface area from the sail would have made it unable to retain heat as efficently as other animals. It's more likely that this spiny structure would have supported a ridge of fat, not unlike those in camels, but not as round. This would have been a fantastic adaptation to insulate the animal from the brutal desert temperatures and would have helped see it through food-scarce times. In any case, the sail has little bearing on the metaboli! c state of Spinosaurus aegyptiacus, and would not have offered it any advantage.
from Honkie Tong, age 17, ?, ?, ?; September 1, 2001


"Spinosaurus without a doubt. I don't care if you think I like him just becase of the movie. You only need to look at the facts.
>full skeleton has been found.
>strong three clawed arms (not like T. Rex)
>as large or larger than T. Rex
>temperature regulator on it's back so it could heat up and go hunting early and go hunting.
>it was without a doubt a hunter and not a scavenger (T. Rex does both, mainly scavenge.)

Wrong. T. Rex does not mainly scavenge. Why would he when he could feast on a fresh kill? T. Rex had been designed to catch up to prey using his powerful legs, then administer one (usually lethal) bite from his powerful jaws. He may have ocassionaly come across a dead carcass and ate it, but that doesn't mean he was primarily a scavenger.

Next, Spino may have had longer arms than T. Rex (and most other theropods for that matter) but that wouldn't have given him any sort of advantage when locked in a deadly battle against a Tyrannosaur. Think about it. t. Rex wasn't only at the top of the food chain, he was also top of the evolutionary chain (for dinosaurs). He was one of the last species on Earth before the mysterious great extinction occured, which ended the Mesozoic. T. Rex had evolved from earlier theropods over millions of years so don't you think there'd be a reason for his arms to get so small? He obviously didn't need them, so evolution probably made them smaller to increase the size of T. Rex's and (thus multiplying it's biting force) without having t lengthen the tail.

Spinosaurus may have been larger than T. Rex, but he was more lightly built and wasn't as muscular. One bite from T. Rex and Spino's fancy exterior would have cracked like an eggshell. I also think that Spino's little frill wouldn't have given him any advantage in a battle.

Look, Spino fans, If you think a real Spinosaurus would have been similar to one in Jurassic Park Three than you do only like him for the movie. The real Spinosaurus wasn't a big game hunter walking around in forest looking for it's next meal. If you want to know what the real Spinosaurus looked like, he was a big, fragile theropod who spent most of his time in the water. The only thing Spino could hunt would have been fish and perhaps small lizards. If he did try biting into anything bigger, his teeth would fall out. This is another thing which proves my case. Unlike T. Rex's or Gigantosaurus' teeth, Spinosaurus' were not serrated, but straight, allowing Spinosaurus to remove any fish that got caught in his teeth.

Face it Spino fans, this guy was justa big fish eatin' wussy. If he did lock horns with a Tyrannosaur, the Tyrannosaur could simply bite him once, which would either kill Spinosaurus on contact, or T. Rex could watch as he bled to death.
from Skeptic, age 13, ?, ?, Canadian and proud; September 1, 2001


Why is everyone being so hard on the T-rex just because it lost to a Spinosaurus in Jurassic park 3? It dosen't mean it wouldn't have in real life! Beside's T-rex couldn't have tried to Kick Spinosaurus's (*& in real life because Spinosaurus lived in Africa 143 million year's ago at the beginning of the cretaceous period. and T-rex lived in the in the United states 70 million years ago almost at the end of the cretaceous period.. So they couldn't have tried to kill each other in real life Because they both lived at diffrent times and different counteries.
from Will, age 13, ?, ?, United kingdom; September 1, 2001


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