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Dino Talk: A Dinosaur Forum

December 1-5 2000

this year my grade is doin a projest called "The Mock Trial" and my part is the keeper of the carnivores.. out Trail is based on the movie Jurassic park. Any how im trying to find information on Cranivores/meat eating dinos.
from yooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, age 13, planet earth, mother, planet; December 5, 2000

Brad, I don't think that idea would work. People would just post idiotic suggestions there too. JC, we could really use your ideas here. What should be done 'bout this stupid Joseph and BBD argument?
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 5, 2000
I agree. I'll try to think of something - any other suggestions? JC

Joseph, please, I have better things to do with my life other than argue. If you want to say something, rather than turning it into a battle cry, just state your position.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 5, 2000

I agree with Brad, there should be more than one that the people that want to conduct scientific discussion can and don't have to sift through all of the other stuff, arguing about raptors or whatever (personally I haven't been following this whole raptor killing power thing that BBD is talking about, or whoever it is, and its kinda hard to find worthwhile posts...).
from Chandler, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 5, 2000

Bakker did say raptor claws were like carving knives. Look more like hooked knives to me. I dont think Tyrannosaurs had a septic bite. Komodo dragons have a septic bite, but why doesnt the Nile and Water monitor? Not to mention scores of other monitor lizards. A septic bite needs not only rotting meat between teeth, but bacterial or very germy saliva, bleeding gums and covered teeth. Besides, animals who need a poisonous bite are usually too slow to run down their prey or make a solid kill. Megalania may have had a septic bite, but then he was a distance runner so who knows? Tyrannosaurs ate alot of bone too, so that wouldve knocked alot of meat out of his teeth. Then theropod lips were short and not long or thick enuff for that sort of stuff. I dont think T>rex had no septic bite. Dilophosaurus maybe.
from Monkeyman, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 5, 2000

Joseph, Im not gonna gang up with you against "them". Im not a raptor fan nor a T.rex fan. I love em all, even the other classes(if any of you know what that means). Personally I dont want anything to do with "dino-fan" ignorance. Its the dumbest thing Ive seen. The only ppl I see with a mind in here is me and Brad. Honkie Tong, your a hypocrite. The ant is most deadly, so tyrannosaurs still are not the most deadly predator around. A cats claws are for gripping, but they can just as easily cut. Then being a predator, tyrannosaurs probably didnt have as thick skin as a herbivore, to cool down and more flexibility. Then why do you keep talking about a small raptor. Im not talking about a small raptor and t.rex. Im talking about any tyrannosaur and raptor the same height. Raptor claws were too big for hooks. Then your talking about a whole other class, in the archosaur class, grappling claws are like eagle claws, not scythes. Those claws were made for ! cutting, and Bakkers own words are they were like knives. No raptor could take T.rex, but daspletosaurus, sure, or albertosaurus, yes, ofcourse they didnt live in the same time. The hooked point was for "sureshot" hits and helped plunge deeper as the "blade" portion was cutting. Large raptors lived with even larger and more formidable prey. As far as the most deadly predator ever, that would go to thylacoleo, large grappling hands, huge "raptor" claws, big chisel like teeth for splitting the neck or back of skull not to mention he could move like a lion-sized leopard. Now thats deadly. Speaking of his claws, they were very similar to raptor claws, thylacoleo HAD hook claws on his fingers and toes, but huge sickle like claws on his thumbs for cutting. Those claws were for cutting and raptor claws were like that too! Not to mention, MANY other dinosaurs had grappling claws just for grappling like how cats use theirs. But there claws werent flattened and bladed like a cutting too! l. The retracting muscle wasnt for cutting, just pulling and pushing, the cutting was done by the arms and legs, just like how cats retract and cut when they do cut. Hmmmmmmm.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 5, 2000

Brad, I couldnt agree with you more, of course only 3 of us would be in the first one, and the lil loser group would fill up the 2nd with all their alteregos and the like. The arguing is not for me, it tires and disgusts me. Oh yeah, Brad, dont forget the talk forum for tyrannosaurus Rex fans who are willing to only debate about which fan group is the best.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 5, 2000

Note to BBD - I don't have time to edit your posts for curse words and personal insults. If you want the dinosaur part of your post published, edit it yourself and re-submit it in a suitable format. JC

It is obvious by the type of messages recieved that DinoTalk should include more than one message board, probably three.
The place for normal dinosaur discussion- evolution, behavior, extinction, cloning, discoveries, etc... This would be my favourite.
Discussion of the killing powers of dinosaurs, comparisons to weapons, techniques, etc... Fights can break out, as long as they still involve ideas and not people. Nearly all of the current stuff would go here.
Discussion of non-dinosaur news, homework, events, etc. A place to get to know each other, and for the 'alphas' to announce they are leaving, and stuff like that. Of course, there would still be rules here.

How do other people see this?
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; December 5, 2000
I don't know - I'd also like to hear what the others think My guess is that the people who belong in the second and third category are sure that their discussion would fit into your first category - "Normal Discussion." We could put up a flame page, but that just encourages them. On our "Ask a Dinosaur Questions Site" (which we though was clearly a dinosaur question page), over a third of the questions we get have absolutely nothing to do with dinosaurs (people ask us about history, philosophy, languages, how to take care of their pets - you wouldn't believe the questions). Chaos seems to thrive on the Web and its hard to keep it out. JC

Joseph, you are so cool in my opinion. Thats all they know how to talk about is tyrannosaurs. Joseph, I put forth an argument,(could a 7ton raptor take out a 7ton tyrannosaur) THINK WITH FACTS, it could, but anyway, they wouldnt give me anything but nitpicks and stuff that had NOTHING to do with what I was saying, then honkie thong, has all this misinformation he and his lackies claim as fact, but when you ask em where they got that shhhh, all they can do is say "your stupid, your stupid" and dont giver you anything. Basically there a bunch of weak minded losers who have nothing better than to fight behind a computer screen and Levine and his made up characters and facts, well hes a joke. Ive already taught them a lesson, I alone with facts and logic went against all them and their alter egos and I still won the argument. These people are small.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 5, 2000

Awww, Joseph, Can't handle a fight by yourself? You have to get other
people involved? HA, Whatya' baby.

from Unknown, age 11, ?, ?, ?; December 5, 2000


from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 5, 2000

Oh yes, I forgot your point about the raptors struggling and kicking Tyrannosaurus' neck, killing him. Well, if you bothered to look at the eariler posts, yes, the ones with the computer model, you would realize why this is not possible. Anyway, since you wanted to argue with the facts, I'll give you my arguments based on the facts. You know and admit that Tyrannosaurus had a powerful, well muscled neck right? Good. So tell me in the unlikely event a raptor kicks the Tyrannosaurus in the neck, what will happen? It'll be kicking muscle! Hardly a deadily wound.

I think both you and BBD are letting your biases cloud your judgment. Give it up. Everytime you bring up a point, it's shot down.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Really Joseph, BBD, your arguments are hardly calm and rational. Joseph, you never fail to amaze me. As usual, your "facts" are incorrect.

Pound for pound deadilness hardly determines the deadilest animal. The lowly ant is pound for pound, deadiler than the raptors, so why don't you call them the deadilest creatures? No? Now you see the flaw in your reasoning. Tyrannosaurus was the deadilest predator around.

Also about a raptor slash being more wounding than a "puny" Tyrannosaur bite. I seriously believe this to be untrue. A Tyrannosaur bite can remove up to 70kilos of meat and leave a gouge 1 feet deep and 3 feet long. Is that your idea of puny? The raptors on the other hand, if we look at the bones, we would realize that while the sickle claw can be swiped 180 degrees, the muscles moving the claw were relatively weak. I believe the raptors used the claws more for grappeling than anything else. One must also remember that a Tyrannosaurus bite could also shatter bone. Responding to BBD's eariler statement about raptor claws beign like cats claws and being used like carving knives. Well, if BBD knew any comparative anatomy, he would realize that cat claws were not designed to carve, but to grip the prey. Like the limb claws of the raptor, the arms have also been sorely overestimated.

About agility. It's obvious that the raptors were more agile, but how much more sgile that it gave it an edge in combat? We all know that a small cat is far more agile than a big dog, but if you pit those two together, the dog will always win, despite not being as agile. The same is for the raptors. Besides, I don't really think the raptors were really smart to hit the rex and then stand back. Which puts another flaw into your statement Joseph, we know the raptors main form of attack was grapple and slash, not hit and run. So then, tell me how can the raptors attack the Tyrannosaurus safely if it has to grapple the Tyrannosaur and attack? Tyrannosaurus was by no means extremely clumsly. He was also an extrmemly agile creature that was probally not too far behind the raptors in agility.

About the hearing statement. Are you sure the raptors had better hearing? If I am not wrong, the raptors had the adverage hearing of small predatory dinosaurs. Anaylisis of Tyrannosaur ears showed that this dinosaur was capable of hearing way below and above the range of any other dinosaur predator. The smell, sight and hearing of Tyrannosaurus were all excellent and certainly better than the raptors in all areas. I really don't know where you got your info from, but its hight likely to be inaccurate.

I seriously doubt the raptors were really deadily in the first place. There were alot of carnivore of their size too, but add a sickle claw to it and everybody goes gaga, including you Joseph. You wanted facts? Well, here are the facts.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

You people don't get it do you? BBD's and my rational and clam reasoning has proclaimed our arguments superior to the skewed arguments of any T.rex fan. Get out of here T.rex fans! BBD and Joseph are winnerssssss you are loserssssssss! Common BBD, lets get'em!
from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

You all are ganging up on me! Cowards! Okay, so the raptors did not have as good vision as T.rex, but they were still better. BITE ME!

Now I WIIL TELL YOU why the raptors are better:

They were deadiler, pound for pound.

They were more agile than T.rex, therefore they can attack him and avoid being attacked back.

Also their sickle claws can wound animals more than a puny T.rex bite. One Utahraptor can probally take on a T.rex and kill him.

T.rex cannot win. Like BBD said, if the raptor struggles while a T.rex bites him and if the raptor hits the neck, the rex will be deadmeat. So even T.rex cannot beat a puny Velociraptor. HA HA HA HA HA

So these are the facts I derived from the bones. Raptors are better and deadiler! HA H AH AHAH AH AH AH ! Go to sleep! This is the raptors domain. Now don't say I was like BBD and didn't take any correction. I admit that T.rex could run faster and had better eyesight, but that dosen't make him any more deadilier than the raptors. The raptors were still more agile and had better hearding. These are the FACTS! HA HA!
from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

What do you mean Tyrannosaurus had better eyesight? Ok, his eyesight was not so bad, but it was just as good as the raptors. It did not have better eyesight than the raptors. Honkie, I think you have a problem with me. Why are you always opposing my posts? Can't you see it's obvious that I'm correct and you're wrong? But I am going to prove it beyond all doubt. Here's to you BBD. Honkie, stop all this passive agression and come face me if you dare!
from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

I'll see what I can do about the model, but I can't guarantee anything. Thanks, anyway. I did buy the Carnegie Rex. ;)
from DW, age 14, Singapore!, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

No, he's worse than BBD. BBD didn't act this stubbornly.


Anyway, here's a comparitive breakdown on the dinosaurs in question.

1. Raptors are agile but not very fast.

T-Rex is fast but not that agile (how fast could a 5 ton animal turn?)

2. The massive toe claw on the foot of the raptors is not strong enough to slash. We know this because we have resident paleontologist here at zoomdinos, Levine, who you'll meet soon, who studies stress marks on fossils. They were either used as grappling hooks or for mating rituals.They have strong jaws with teeth, but they are not very large. The're hands have nice slashing claws, but so do all medium sized theropods.
T-Rex has a huge haw filled with teeth. Nothing special, right? Wrong. THe jaws have a bite pressure hard enough to puncture steel.

3. Raptors may have had stereoscopic vision but they did not have stereoscopic hearing which is important. They had an adequet sense of smell.
T-Rex had steroescopic vision, stereoscopic hearing and exellent sense of smell.

4. Pack hunting has only been observed in Deinonychus and many suspect it is just mobbing. (We have discussed this already) However, all smaller dromeosaurids found in disasters,e.g. sandstorms, ash-falls , etc. , have been found singularly.
T-Rex proberbly hunted in pairs or family groups. We know this because Tyrannosaurs have been found with severe injuries (Stan the T-rex had a broken neck) which healed. How would an animal with a broken neck hunt? Therefore, something must be feeding them.

5. Raptors have not been found with many injuries.
T-Rex's have been found with many injuries.

6. A study on the braincases of raptors show that small raptors have the brain makeup of mean chickens. Deinonychus has a slightly more complex brain structure.
T-Rex has the brain makeup of hawks.

These are the cold, hard facts. Go and check them up. Take your time. But if you refuse to acknowledge these facts, good luck in life. Stubborness is not a trait people look for.
from DW, age 14, Singapore!, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

That message didn't turn out very good, so this is the contuination. Once again, as I said, there is nothing to say Tyrannosaurus would have had poor vision.

Now, if you would look at the adverage raptor skull, you would notice that their eyes did not face as forward as Tyrannosaurus, meaning they would have had a wider field of vision but correspondingly less steroscopic vision. Which means they had less dept perception than Tyrannosaurus. If you would look at the raptor eye, you would ntoice it was pretty adverage for a predatory dinosaur its size. The raptors would have had good vision, but they would have been outspotted by a modern lion anyday, which in turn would be outspotted by Tyrannosaurus. Once again, there is nothing to indicate that Tyrannosaurus had poor vision at all. If anything, we should find that Tyrannosaurus probally had one of the best visions of any dinosaur around. These are my conclusions I drew from the bones and facts, nothing more.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

No thanks, it's just about afternoon here in S'pore. I wonder what time it is in Tulsa?

Anyway, I'll engage you piecemeal. I believe your statement about the raptors having better eyesight is not true. As you said, you are going to disprove us with facts, well, where are the facts to show that the raptors had better eyesight. If you ask me, you're assuming. And when you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME. But in this case, it's jsut you.

Okay, back to the topic of eyesight. If you ask me, there is nothing to prove that the raptors had better eyesight, to the contray, I suspect they might have had poorer eyesight. If you look at a Tyrannosaurus skull, you would notice that it actually has a very narrow snout. Meaning it's eyes would have faced forward, giving it steroscopic vision, or in simple terms, dept of field to hunt. Another thing, a Tyrannosaur eye is actually bigger than your fist, it was slightly bigger than a tennis ball, meaning it would have had extremely acute vision, compairable or even exceeduing that of modern day raptors, which have extremely good vision. Tyrannosaurus probally had 80/20 vision, or prehaps even 100/20 vision. Meaning hat you can spot from 100 feet, a Tyrannosaurus can see from 100 feet. I guess you must have been mislead by Jurassic Park. That movie is hardly fact. In that scene where Grant and Lex froze in front of the rex, and the rex can't see them....that's nuts, that's cr! azy. They would have been lunchmeat. I have no idea where you got the idea that Tyrannosaurus had poor vision from, prehaps you might state that Tyrannosaurus had very small optical lobes in compairism to its olfactory lobes but really, that by no means would have meant Tyrannosaurus had bad vision. Tyrannosaurus' optic lobes were certainly bigger than other dinosaurs of its time...including the raptors. Once again, there's nothing to sugest Tyrannosaurus had poor vision. It dosen't make much sense for a animal with steroscopic ability but poor vision, it dosen't make much sense at all.

Not to the raptors. If you look at a raptor skull, you would notice that its eyes actually didn't face as much forward as Tyrannosaurus. Giving it a wider field of view and correspondingly less steroscopic vision. I you would look at the raptor eye, you would notice it wasn't really big or anything, but adverage for a predator. The raptors probally had good vision, but certainly not better than Tyrannosaurus. A moder day lion would have outspotted the raptors, only to be outspotted by Tyrannosaurus. Once again, I really see nothing in the bones or facts to suggest the raptors had better eyesight.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Tyrannosaur speed limits again? Well just in case anybody wants to know, the Tyrannosaurus rexes in Old Blood clock a wooping 53 kilometers and hour.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

No thanks, it's just about afternoon here in S'pore. I wonder what time it is in Tulsa?

Anyway, I'll engage you piecemeal. I believe your statement about the raptors having better eyesight is not true. As you said, you are going to disprove us with facts, well, where are the facts to show that the raptors had better eyesight. If you ask me, you're assuming. And when you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME. But in this case, it's jsut you.

Okay, back to the topic of eyesight. If you ask me, there is nothing to prove that the raptors had better eyesight, to the contray, I suspect they might have had poorer eyesight. If you look at a Tyrannosaurus skull, you would notice that it actually has a very narrow snout. Meaning it's eyes would have faced forward, giving it steroscopic vision, or in simple terms, dept of field to hunt. Another thing, a Tyrannosaur eye is actually bigger than your fist, it was slightly bigger than a tennis ball, meaning it would have had extremely acute vision, compairable or even exceeduing that of modern day raptors, which have extremely good vision. Tyrannosaurus probally had 80/20 vision, or prehaps even 100/20 vision. Meaning hat you can spot from 100 feet, a Tyrannosaurus can see from 100 feet. I guess you must have been mislead by Jurassic Park. That movie is hardly fact. In that scene where Grant and Lex froze in front of the rex, and the rex can't see them....that's nuts, that's cr! azy. T
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Tyrannosaurus was the ultimate expression and the best of the Tyrannosaurs, therefore, he's immenensely popular. No, no other Tyrannosaur was better than Tyrannosaurus Rex. I donno why you call him "old rex", but he was one of the most modern, most advanced Tyrannosaurs.
from Leonard, age 12, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Go find somebody else to insult Carchardontosaur, once I'm done with T.rex, I'll move on to you. Hey, T.rex fans, why aren't you answering my posts about T.rex being not as deadily? Are you scared?
from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

You know Joseph, you're right.......YOU BEHAVE EXACTLY LIKE BBD, ARRAGORANT, AND SELF-ASSURED. Go date BBD or something and leave this place in peace.
from Grace Tay, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Hey, good one Honkie! Take that Joseph and BBD!
from Lilian Tay, age 14, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

OK! So I was wrong, T.rex was faster than a raptor, BITE ME! The raptors were still deadiler because they were better in everything else. They certainly had better eyesight than T.rex, who was a scavenger. BBD's correct. The raptors were deadiler. We still win. Go to sleep Honkie. You're no good arguging against me. You're no match for me.
from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Okay, Tyrannosaurus is pretty neat, but you have got to pay some attention to the other tyrannosaurs like Alcertrosaurus and Daspletosaurus and Tabrosaurus. They are just as good, if not better than, old T-rex.
from russell p, age ?, seattle, wa, usa; December 4, 2000

Joseph, I am not going to get into this, I just won't. You want to run around waving your butt in the air that's fine with me, but go bother someone else about it. Face it, with an attitude like that, I'm surprised your internet name isn't POND SCUM.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Well, I'm taking a break form old blood for a while. I'll resume next week.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

My goodness, you're bahaving exactaly like BBD. Anyway, your anaylisis of Tyrannosaurus speed limits are flawed, let me tell you why.

You wanted facts? Okay, I'll give you facts. Is the Needletail Swallow limited to 50 miles per hour because if it hit a wall above that speed, it would certainly die? Of course not. The Needletail flies at speeds in excess of 200 miles per hour. It's not limited by what speed it would kill itself if it flew into a wall.

I believe the same is for Tyrannosaurus rex. I don't think he would have been limited to 30km/h for the simple reason he did not fall! Unlike us humans who are top heavy and require a balancing act to walk upright, Tyrannosaurus rex was well balanced with a heavy stiffened tail to act as a counterweight and also as a gyoscope to keep the rex from falling, much like a cheetah's tail. That in addition to his powerful legs and shock absorbing potential, would have allowed him to move in excess of 30 km/h. In fact, I would even expect him to make up to 50 km/h. Some people compair his running speed to that of an elephant, but I find this is flawed. Tyrannosaur legs resemble more that of an ostrich than that of an elephant. Yes, Tyrannosaurus was a fast runner, it's unlikely that your argument stands.

If you were right, could I say that Gymnastics is not possible because if I fell while doing a routine, I might kill myself. No. I don't think it's a good idea to put such "limits" on animals and proclaim them to follow such "limits". They will escape such limits. Not so long ago, we proclaimed by our flawed judgment, that by the laws of aerodynamics, the hummingbird could not fly. But hummingbirds still fly despite all out "limits".It's bad pratice to put speed limits based on risk on animals. Tyrannosaurus was certainly built to move above 30 km/h, and it will, despite all your speed "limits". Life will find a way.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Joseph, I'm begging you, I'm on my knees begging you. Please, no matter what, don't start this again. We've begun to gather a real problem with this whole raptor thing. Personally, I am not a rex fan either(or a hater, mind you). Still, you hve to face facts. We really don't want to get into more conflict, none of us do. Don't take my word for it, ask poor BBD. If it makes you feel any better, probably a pack of raptors could kill my species. Just, puleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze don't make us deal with this over and over. It's never worth the trouble.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Yeah right Honkie. If T.rex fell while it was running above 30km/h, it would injure itself. If it did a belly flop while running above 50km/h, it would kill itself. Your response saying that T.rex was faster than the raptors is not valid. Ok, I admit the facts, the raptors were not as fast as I thought, but they were still faster than T.rex and could slash his butt HAHAHHAHAHA we win!
from Joseph, age ?, Tulsa, ?, USA; December 4, 2000

Joe Bob (probably not his real name) wrote a short story in which Honkie Tong and Billy Macdraw were killed by raptors. Being nothing more than a personal attack, this story was recently deleted.
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; December 4, 2000

What did I miss? What did joe say?
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

I think I want to be a palentologest(I hope I spelled that right)when I grow up.I've been looking for dino articles,facts,and such since I was little.I read them,said my opinions about the issues(such as extinction),and hoped I could be one of them and make a discovory.In my heart,and in my soul,I know I will one day make a big discovory in palentology,just like them.
from Katryn W., age 12, Augusta, Michigan, America; December 4, 2000

Eating oatmeal with candy dinosaurs in it is sort of fun. Building with dinosaur-themed LEGO is fun. And according to my new LEGO Mania magazine, Quaker and LEGO have a "NAME THE DINOSAUR CONTEST!" Buy the dino egg oatmeal. Win LEGO dino sets for prizes. And apparently choose the name of a new dinosaur. The Canadian Museum of Nature is in on this too, and there is a sculpture of the new dino in the ad. It's a rather plain centrosaurine, with a short upright nasal horn and little ornamentation on the frill--but it could be my dinosaur! It's currently labeled as NEWLY DISCOVERED DINOSAUR. Anyone know anything more about this? Of course, none of the rules are in the ad, you must "See Grocery Stores for Details." Maybe they want a kid in the ages 6-12 LEGO target group, maybe the contest is almost over (I only recently renewed my LEGO membership, this is the November and December 2000 issue). But I think I have a good enough chance at this. I promise to come up with a decent scientific name, and not call it a Legosaurus. Is this a new genus or just a new species (of Centrosaurus?)? Well, I guess it's time to see grocery stores for details.
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; December 4, 2000

dinosoars are so cool everyone sould learn about them
from suzie q, age 54, orlando, maine, africa; December 4, 2000

dinosaurs are still alive
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

I really don't like the idea of Joe Bob's fanfic. I know I am not a writer but this's my say. I think it should be removed as quickly as possible.
from Lilian T., age 14, Singapore, ?, ?; December 4, 2000
Okay, he's gone. JC

I am really against the idea of Joe Bob's story. I can see nothing in that story but the comtempt and hate of the writer towards another person not sharing his opinion.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Well, I feel that writers should not sttack each other so directly. Thye could use subtle attacks here and there to do it. I'd hate to see hate stories about nothing but human pain and suffering fill the fan fic page more than I have seen so much hate come from BBD here.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

It would make for a very boring fight. The Utahraptor and Tyrannosaur will not be able to fight as they will keep bouncing away from each other and skipping of the walls.I'm not sure dinosaurus were smart enough to maneuver in 0g. Anyway, Joeseph, since you would like to argue with facts, I would like to tell you that the raptors were actually not faster than Tyrannosaurus because of, well, the facts.

The raptors have one of the shortest tibiae and metatarsals of any land based predatory dinosaur, which is the direct opposite of what you would expect in a fast runner. The raptors were probally actually surprisingly slow for their size, prehaps slightly faster than humans. If we do compairative anatomy, we would realize all fast runners have long and slender tibulae and metatarsals. Not to mention equipment to grip the ground. If we look at the raptors, we would realize they had very little muscle at the end of the leg. Instead, the entire leg was worked from the top by tendons. Also, the two toes of the raptors that are in contact with the ground are not really cut out for gripping the ground. If we look at the raptors, we would realize that they were hardly built for speed, but for agaility. Ceratinly though, I suspect a raptor could outrun a human being anyday.

If we look at the leg of a Tyrannosaurus, we would realize it actually has the longest and most slender tibiae and metatarsals of any land based predatory dinosaur. We would also notice that the Tyrannosaur leg had a lot of muscle attatchments and shock absorbing cartillage to protect the leg from tremedus shock sustained while running. If we look at the foot of a Tyrannosaur, we would notice that it is well splayed out to spread its weight and also to delocalise the shock of running. Even better, the toe claws of a Tyrannosaur are well curved and could have gripped the ground while running. All in all, we would actually expect Tyrannosaurus to be one of the fastest land based predators in all of dinosauria.

Well Brad, the soup I was having did have an entire chicken stuffed in it. It's a Korean soup.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

So, what if we changed this to a Tyrannosaurus rex and a genetically modified 7-ton Utahraptor fighting in an environment with no gravity...??? 'Raptor's already hypothetical, we can go as far as we want to now.
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; December 4, 2000

I have a book about making tyrannosaurs out of chicken skeletons, but I haven't tried it yet. The book does show how to make the skull: you need to cut the hips into skull-like shapes. Not totally authentic. Isn't it a bit unusual to find bones in chicken soup?
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; December 4, 2000

Hey you know I was eating some Ginseng chicken soup that day when I suddenly had a brainwave. As I looked at the chicken bones, I noticed I could build a complete Tyrannosaurus Rex from the bones! I searched up the net for it and actally found a webpage teaching us how to make dino models from chicken bones. I havent figured out the skull yet though.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

JC, I have noticed that Joe Bob's fan fic has shifted from attacking dinosaurs to attacking people. Isn't that against policy? I am particaully against that when I am involved.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000
I certainly don't like material like that at all. What do the other authors think? Censorship on the fiction page or not. Let me know what you think. JC

Actually, I have the lost world T.rex. It ain't so bad too, thought a bit inaccurate. I'm afraid you have to order that from overseras as Singaporeans are too pre-occupied with BLADE RIDER!
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Sorry man. Hey, can you order one for me too?
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

BBD, are you with me? We have not won yet, but nor have we lost. THis is far from over. We must show them that Tyrannosaurus was actually an overated animal! Lets not stop until we have a confirmed victory. Remember, the facts are there. Tyrannosaurus was a scavenger and the Raptors were faster and deadiler. Lets use all this to get em!
from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

No! It's not over! WE HAVE NOT LOST YET. Raptors are the deadilest animals around! And I'm going to prove that to you. Firstly they are faster than any Tyrannosaurus of any size, so they can come aroung and wack Tyrannosaurus' butt anytime. Tyrannosaurus was limited to 20km/h hardly fast. In fact, I am certain Tyrannosaurus was a scavenger, hardly the superkiller you made it out to be.
from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 4, 2000

Honkie, I've been to the bug shop and it does not have what I wanted. What they have is the Carnegie Collection by Safari Ltd. T-Rex and it looks like this and I think it is what you mentioned:


This is what I am looking for


And why (from the main site): Head swings from side to side. Lower jaw moves up and down. Neck moves up and down. Articulating arms, legs, knees, & hips. the Rex has a bendable tail. Available in stores now!
This is really awesome! Too bad I can't find it in Singapore.

from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

My God...



I'm sorry. Excuse me if I reacted rashly or otherwise.
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

BBD I'm with you. I'm sick of seeing those T.rex fans gang up to get you. Those T.rex fans are letting their dinosaur cloud their judgment. Let's not have anything to do with that. We can argue our way past them with facts and evidence. Yes, the raptors were the deadilest. And nothing is going to change that. BBD, lets teach these morons that Tyrannosaurus was vastly overated. Watch out T.rex fans, BBD's has a new ally.

But first tings first. BBD, even though monkeyboy behavaves like a totaly arragrant fellow, I must agree that 7-ton raptors are not a good idea. As I said, we must argue with facts, so I guess a 7-ton raptor is not really good for our case. You watch out T.rex fans! The raptors are smarter, faster and more agile than Tyrannosaurus rex. I betcha a pack of dromies can take down a Tyrannosaurus.
from Joseph, age ?, Tulsa, ?, USA; December 3, 2000

BBD, you called your opposition "morons"? Really, I get the impression that you are trying to force your view with skewed common sense while the Tyrannosaur fans are arguing via facts and logical and rational reasoning. Really, if you could swoop so low as to declare your opposition morons and alter-egos, you are either no better than them or prehaps even worse.
from Norman, age 15, ?, ?, Malaysia; December 3, 2000

Well, not bad Carchardontosaur, keep it up. I'm currently taking a break from old blood not so please do nto hold it against me if I do nto post for a while. I really find that piece by Joe Bob B extremely offensive though. Well, I may sound clam but am actually extremely offended. Please do somethign about it.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Mabye you people should restart the entire thing. Starting from post one. You are hardly going anywhere trading fire like that. BBD, you should consider. You have far more to lose than the other side. How about you other guys? Do you think you should restart?
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Prehaps all this started with how we see "deadiliness" Some say see pound for pound deadileness while others see literal deadiliness. Well, if that's true, Dryptosaurus would probally be the deadilest, pound for pouns while Tyrannosaurus would literally be the deadilest dinosaur around. As you can see, the raptors don't fit anywhere. Anyway, if BBD's argument stands about pound for pound deadiliness, then I assume the deadiliness creature would be the mosquito.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

If I remembers correctly, you never took correction about the arms, your last post stated that Giganotosaurus had arms that were of the same strenght. If you ask me, that's an excuse to save your skin, not taking correction. Anyway, that Giganotosaurus vs Tyrannosaurus debate was never resolved because you magically switched to raptors...hmm how odd or are you quietly abandoning ship and hoping nobody notices?
from Levine, age 24, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Statistically, if a lot of people call you an idiot, then that idea must have something going for it. Mabye you are an...well, you fill in the rest.
from Jon F, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

You see, BBD your problem is that you have hardly any good or correct ideas of the raptors. One thing. A 7-ton Tyrannosaur would be faster than a 7-ton raptor. Whatever gave you the idea that it was faster? A Tyrannosaur is always faster than a raptor of similar size. In fact, the Tyrannosaurs were one of the fastest predatory dinosaurs around. I don't know how you argue, but Honkie has determined that a 7-ton raptor would hardly be able to kick, so there goes the claw. Also, whats a few slashes in compairism to a 3 foot long and 1 foot deep hone in your flank? If you ask me, deducing from the facts, Tyrannosaurus was the deadilest in the 7-ton class. And another thing, Tyrannosaurus was more accurately weighted in at 6 tons.

Really, you shouldn't accuse people of being alter-egos. They can get dissed and really prove their existence to you painfully.
from FD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Well, different things can be deduced from bones BBD, and I would like to say I do not agree with you. A 20foot raptr will weight in excess of a ton and therefore, will not be able to leap. So that leaves it with the hands to fight a 20foot Tyrannosaurus. Well, I don't think it would be in the good intrest fo the raptor to use its grappeling arms to grappel with the Tyrannosaur. Nor could the raptors escape the Tyrannosaur as the Tyrannosaur could outrun it. If you ask me, if anything, a big raptor would be disadventaged in a fight as all the Tyrannosaurids need is to get a single bite in and that's the end of the story. The raptor will bleed to death from that wound. If you ask me, the Tytrannosaur, with its higher speed, agility and more powerful bite would have won the day.
from Leonard, age 12, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Well, I guess BBD not only has a fortified mind, but very little in it as ideas cannot get in and out. Its my believe a Tyrannosaurid would have taken on and raptor, any size and won.
from flamebird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Not bad, this drawing is not bad.
from Honkie Tong, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Well done, FD, your anaylsis of BBD's character is spot on.
from Levine, age 24, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

I don't want to pop anybodys party but I have proved exausively that a 7-ton raptor cannot work. Raptors have a perfect small bodyplan. You can't enlarge that without getting into trouble. I think what people are trying to tell you is that assuming the raptors did use their sickle claws (which is highly unlikely) they probally would be deadilest pound for pound. But in the end, Tyrannosaurus would still be the deadilest predator becasue he had the most deadileness points.As I said, mother nature has a good reason for keeping the raptors small. A 7-ton raptor would not be deadily, but handicapped instead. Think of it this way. If the raptors were so deadily, then bigger and more powerful forms should have appeared...well, it looked that way with Utahraptor but obviously something wasn't working as they didn't get to 7-ton size, but went extinct when the early Tyrannosaurids appeared. So your theory of 20foot raptor vs 20ft tyrannosaurs did happen, but it was obvious the Tyrannosaurids won. That's my opinion.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

BBD, I read your last post about fifty times. In a sense, you are right, but stil, it seemed as if you were putting up an argument that was truly turnining your attiude from conversationalis to dictator. Again, I don't know you or anything about you, and neither does anyone else here, so none, and I mean none of us has the right to say false things about you, and somewhere along the line I got carried away with how much I really should have been able to say. After reading your post, I went all the way down and went over your previous posts. You should too, because there was a time or two where I think you said something and expected us to decipher it as you meant it to be wrote. I, nor anyone on this planet can truly read minds, and sometimes I know how it feels to be thought as inferior. Like when people compare me to T-rex. There's just no competition, we never met, we weren't related, and still the comparing will never cease. I want to ap! ologige, I know I must have stepped past the line for you to put a post to me alone.

In a way, it prouds me to say this. It looks like one of the three outcasts we've had, one of them intends to stay.

Also, any suggestions for my drawing? Comments?
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

My last post I didn't finish. BBD, I have not the slightest clue about what kind of person you are, but, you give all of us the impression you are some little four year old running around, head held high, chest out, screaming "IWONIWONYOULOSTBITEME!" Then again, you might be an elderly man peeing in his pants when he types. This is the internet, you give people the impression of who you are by what escapes your fingers and transfers onto the screen. We don't know you, but we do know you must be a truly mean-spirited person to say you are right and everyone else here is wrong. For once, try to, rather than look for someone that agrees with you, open your eyes and see what other people might think. Just because dinosaurs have been extinct for millions of years you think that whatever you say is right, and for all we know you are, for all we know brad's story in the fanfic section is entirely the truth. No one here hates you, we can't because none of us have met you. Listen to others opinions, in the big picture it can make a significant difference.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

JC, do you have any info on the Mongoose Lemur?
from firebird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000
I'll check and see later this afternoon - right now I have 808 mail message in my mail box to wade through. JC

I've put up a drawing. It's not as good as any of honky's but I think it turned out more or less ok. Needless to say I am a better author than I am an artist. I have posted chapter six of EIFAR. It's kinda short but it's a more or less good battle type chapter. Anyoone who dosn't like raptors will like this chapter.

BBD, you seriously could use some help on understanding what we're trying to get through to you. What I am about to say I am speaking for everyone here. You not only didn't win, you just shoved your ego level up. I dare you to point to one person in this chatroom other than yourself that is trying to be mean or make you feel bad. I speak in the place of everyone here as I said before, and no one here is trying to do that other than you. You probably spend your free time making a list of ridiculous comments. Needless to say, you are not a paleontologist, else you would have more sense than to puff out your chest and gloat: "I
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

I have posted both my drawings and chapter six of my EIFAR! I, as always, am looking for comments and suggestions. Chapter six is short but it's a pretty good battle scene.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

First of all carcharodontosaur, I want to say thank you VERY much. Second, Im not in bring it on mode. I said my opinion, then I get jumped in my chest by a group with the name calling and nitpicking. I did take criticism and accepted it from honkie tong, but when I point out a mistake someone has made....then a whole bunch of alter egos jumps at me with the moronity as you put it, and basically tells me Im an idiot, I dont know anything, Im spreading false info etc. when Im not. If im not sure about it, I dont say anything but questions or what I think about it. Like creodonts, reptiles and some others. But my view was(and Im JUST restating it for carcharodontosaur) Dromaeosaurs were a deadlier dinosaur than tyrannosaurs. Period. Thats all. Then I get seriously attacked. The little group here claimed I said such things as "Any raptor can take a !T.REX!, Raptors were more successful, there were 7 ton raptors, raptors could cut bone, raptors were superfast, Im a raptor fan and tyrannosaur fans I can beat," etc. Now do you see why I became slightly defensive. Now if I was talking to you car. I wouldnt have said "I won", but the morons in here dont understand the phrase "My logical standpoints make more sense than yours by common sense". Everythin I say isnt right, and all my opinions isnt right. But for this arguement, I used pure logic. Logic and mathematics can make opinions and theories fact. Im not vain, or arrogant or anything carch., just think about my view slowly, logically and mix it with facts. I studied on raptors and raptor claws, tyrannosaur speed and all the like and I restudied. My arguement was not challenged, all that was challenged were mutated strains of what I said. Then when it was challenged. I took it, said ok, restudied, said a question and then a thought, and of course no reply, just insults and nitpicks. Carch, dont take sides please, and dont realize Im not what you think, I just became defensive an I told you why. I can take criticism and corrections too man, but when I get very weak and petty corrections that are based on small and "zoom dinosaur clique" group opinions, well you think about man. I took corrections about the arms, but why didnt anyone take factual corrections from me? Like Levine saying all male cats are smaller than the females. If you know anything about the carnivore order, you would know that NEVER happens and never has. I corrected him, and magically, a whole bunch of alteregos jumped on me along with honkie tong,Lilian and some other clown. I just want you to understand man. Just understand and realize. Put yourself in my place in here.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Oh yes, I have thought of the perfect way to describe BBD's behaviour. It's like two people playing chess in an international contest, and one sucddenly stands up and declares he had won even before the ame is over. Is his victory vaild? It's not anymore vaild than BBD's. By doing so, the chest player only hurts his own game.

But I guess BBD's that. He cannot bear the thought of losing and must declare a false victory and FORCE other people to agree with him. But in actual fact. Those people sitting in "dark rooms" as you describe as actually sitting back and laughing at your nice little facade-show. I don't usually engage in debates but when I see this happening, I must intervine. I think BBD is probally a insecure person who needs people to affirm their place in soceity. When nobody does that, he has to FORCE others to do so. It's hardly science here. Notice how BBD shout to the whole world that people are trying to make him feel bad? He's actually a very soft person who tries to act tough by saying a threat dosent affect him. Well it's good, we can't all be soft....but in BBD's case, the threat does not exist. Whatever that happened was self generated. BBD invoked those responses. Nobody is going all out to get him. It just shows his insecurity. I'm sorry I have to say this, but this is FD playing your personal shrink. No insult intended.
from FD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

You know, BBD's argument of the Tyrannosaurus fans losing because they like Tyrannosaurus is as good as Jack Horner saying that Tyrannosaurus was a scavenger because Tyrannosaurus fans like to think of it as a hunter-scavenger. This is hardly a vaild argument. BBD, before you accuse the Tyrannosaurus fans of being biased towards their favourite dinosaur, look at yourself. I have read your eariler posts and concluded you are no better. I have noticed the Giganotosaurus arms debate. And its obvious you know very little about Giganotosaurus in the first place, stating that it had bigger arms. When proven wrong with facts, you use an excuse that its arms were the shorter and as strong as Tyrannosaurus. Which is all untrue. You would have made yourself look better if you had admitited you were wrong back then.

>From this incident, I have concluded that you are probally as favoured and have as much dogmaticism about your Raptor ideas. Meaning you were no better judge of the situtation than the Tyrannosaurus fans you accuse of being so. And also that stuff about imaginary people and asking people to get sunshine. Do you know how badly it hurts your case? This debate by my counts is not settled and far from over. By dropping it like this and screaming to whole world you have won is an extremely dumb thing to do. In essence, you have lost. I'm sorry, but you have lost. Jack Horner or Robert Bakker did not go around saying things like I won! I'm right. Those people are wrong. You, with your character, is hardly the person to quote them.
from FD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Go ahead, contuine to deny the obvious. Tyrannosaur fans,(or at least that's what we have grown used to adressing you as) there really are no fixed ideas in plaeontology, but I'll say you are far more mature and levelheaded that a particular individual here by the odd and unimpressive name of BBD. BBD reminds me more of those American dim-witted biker people who spend more time brawling in bars than engaging in serious talk. Or at least I assume he shares that mentaility.
from Levine, age 24, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

I think you have underquoted Bakker. Bakker said that Tyrannosaurus, capable of running up to 70 kilometers an hour and with jaws capable of putting up to 15,000 pounds of pressure, was the deadilest predator tht ever emerged in all of dinosauria. In this argument, the rational thinking and smart acting Tyrannosaurus fans won, your oversized and overinflated ego lost. I'm really not a mean person, nor am I a Tyrannosaur fan but sometimes, we have to fight fire with fire. BBD is really getting out of hand. Come to think of it...only you say you won. Everybody is saying the Tyrannosaur fans won, and so do I. BBD, I have thirteen words for you: "Instead of dissing other people to fuel your ego, go get A LIFE!"
from Jon F, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Brad, I did not know this was the club. In fact, this is how kids(expecaly you) suggest things! If it opens a can of worms, I will tell JC to add a new policy. And one more thing. It does not have to be addressed to Besides, there is a voting page all reddy. By the way, the next Dino-show-us is not going to be a thanksgiving episode. Me and Sue dicided to have the next episode to be just a regular party and the folowing one a holiday special. I am also planning on beginning a dinosaur novel. All 3 will come out as sone as posible.
from Reuben B., age 7, Needham, MA, USA; December 3, 2000

Im not taking sides or anything, but I was reading Bakkers books. Raptors were agile and all that stuff BBD said. I saw that movie "T.Rex" that was very factual, and T.rex was really fast, but not as fast as a raptor the same size. IM NEUTRAL. I know raptors werent the same size at the same time, but he said if a raptor was the same size. Then a pantherine couldnt take hyaenodont unless the creodont was smaller. Theres no arguements there except for the sake of arguing, and I hate arguing and fighting. Levine, I KNOW my mammals, but I like dinosaurs too. Restudy your logics and mammals man. Im not against you levine. BBD, just stop trying to prove your point, not many are listening, just arguing, its pointless. but I think it kinda makes since except there were no 7 ton raptors. It would sound better if you said something like a 20ft tyrannosaur against a 20ft raptor though. If the tyrannosaur got one of those arms or tail, its over.But still, whos listening?
from monkeyman, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Now dont get angry cuz my arguement stands. And it does. Bakker did say raptor claws could cut, and they are like giant cat claws in basic form, and cat claws cut VERY well like knives. Nobody could attack my arguement, and said I was saying something I wasnt saying. Like I said, "A raptor 7 tons pitted against a 7 ton tyrannosaur. I think a raptor could win cuz hes faster with longer reach, HUGE claws and greater agility with faster reflexes." Now that is Plain fact about raptors. No theories or nothing. Facts deduced from the bones. And since were talking about paleontology talk, insulting another is not there either, to JUST insult and not put your view forward, and only arguing your point in a group? Haha! (not to mention the "cuz the group agrees, its right" mentality, PLEASE, group thought dinosaurs were lizards) All you people have to say is insults and that exposes how simple and weak minded plus immature you really are. Please just keep your comments to yourselves. And Levine, well I dont have to say anything there. Hahahaaaa!
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

O.K. I havn't been in here for awhile. WHAT'S GOING ON!?!
from firebird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Guys guys guys, I don't really think BBD believes in his own victory. After a while, his male mind will clear and he will be forced to conceed our view. It's common reaction of self proclaimed "Alpha" males like BBD. They don't really argue with facts, they see anybody questioning their views as a challange to his "Alpha" position in the pack. That's why he goes to the extent of using 7-ton raptors to argue. It's all but a desperate attempt to save his "Alpha" male position.

Outwardly he claims he wins but inwardly he is an emotional wreck that wished he had never partaken in this furball. It's typical "Alpha" male behaviour... I have seen alot of "Alpha" males before. Examples include Coolcat and Mr Rogers. "Beta" males are more friendly and desirable as they are not as egoistic as "Alpha" males. Examples include Brad, Carchardontosaur, Honkie Tong and just about everyone else in this room that dosen't go atoung screaming.
from Lillian Tay, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Err, JC, if you look closely at the latest Old Blood, you would notice it says "Sudden Change" instead of " Implications" for the title in the header page, can anything be done about it?

Oh yes BBD, you're sure misguided and wrong. As Carchardontosaur said, the words "I won" mean hardly anything about it. Not only did you lose this debate, you made yourself look like a total fool infront of all of us. Keep this up and everybody will ignore you and you can go find another chatroom to get your tiny ego boosted. I'd hate to take sides, but you are hardly the side I want to take. Even raptor fans disagree with you. I wonder where you got the words "I won" from. After all that rubbish about Giganotosaurus having bigger arms, you think even anybody in the world will take you seriously? No. If anything, you only made your opponents look good, my you are really a messed up individual. Losing the battle and then losing the war.....
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000
I fixed it. JC

Actually, you're right. If BBD hadn't responded so negatively to some challanges to his posts, the situtation wouldn't have spiraled out of control. Well, things are so bad not that BBD has to declare himself the winner to prevent himself from cracking dwon into tears. If you are me who the real winners are here...WE'RE THE WINNERS! (Opps got to carries away.)
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

You won? Says who? Your mama? Well, BBD, your mama says NO!
from Your Mama, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

I have no idea what he's talking about, but I guess you are right. He has won more than he lost. He has won the title for being the most irration person but lost just about the respect about everyone else. (Including your so called" made up people")

He kinda reminds me of this kid that thought the raptors were better, when I argued him out of commision, he just pinched his ears and kept singing " I cannot hear you, I cannot hear you." Really BBD, you really sound like that. But then again, you're all Americans.....I never figured poeople like you out.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 3, 2000

Hi All!!!!
i'm new!?! Just say hi that's all!!

from Hupia, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

Ok BBD, now I'm taking sides. You just don't know when to quit now, do you? I hate to say it, well, maybe I don't hate to say it, but you lost more so than you won. The words "I won" are not in a palentologist's vocab. There is so little we can prove, and we will never know if you are as right as you say.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

Guys, was the T-Rex a preditor or scavenger? Why?
from ???, age ???, ???, ???, USA; December 2, 2000

PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!! STOP THIS MORONITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is so rediculous! Why is this turning into make fun of BBD? You guys really know how to make a person feel bad. I am not taking sides. Here is something to think about: One, everyone share their opinions at their leisure as long as they are kind. BBD, as much as I hate to seem mean, you really need some help on your social skills. Someone corrcts you and your brain goes into "Bring it on" mode. I don't want to seem at all like I'm trying to drive you away, I appreciate your veiws. Still, if you post something you can't just guarantee it is right. Think about this, and this goes for everyone. WHAT DID YOU DO IN THIS? THIS IN PARTICULAR GOES FOR YOU BBD.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

I'm leaving in 30 minutes to go and scan my pictures. They're not superior, but I think they are sorta good.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

This argument is over. Stop messing with me now and get over it. I won.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

Suchomimus vs Baryonyx
Well, according to my research, I heard that scientists think that they were the same dinosaur. I'll keep researchin' that, and about fight I don't know who would win, but I'd be a pretty good battle.

from Bryan, age 11, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

Pterosaurs died out 65 million years ago, along with
the dinosaurs and many other animals. The long-tailed
pterosaurs all died out at the end of the Jurassic,
but the short-tailed pterosaurs, the pterodactyloids,
survived and went from strength to strength. After
the Jurassic came the Cretaceous Period. It was warmer
and sea levels rose to cover much of the land.
Continets slowly drifted across the globe, crashed
into each other and gradually formed huge moutain
ranges. The pterodactyloids made the most of these new
conditions. There were many different kinds of
pterodactyloids pterosaur, but they all had two things
in common-- short tails and long, narrow wings. From
far away, they must have looked like soaring seabirds
such as gulls and albatrosses. In fact, during he
Cretaceous Period, birds were becoming more common.
For a time, they shared the skies with the pterosaurs.
Pterodactyloids grew larger during the Cretaceous
Period. They also became better at flying and gliding.
To save energy, they glided huge distances without
flapping their wings. Warm air currents blowing up
hillsides and mountains carried some pterodactyls
along, just like hangliders today. Others glided over
the vast oceans and developed strange beaks for
feeding on plankton (minute sea creatures), fish or
seashore shellfish. These flying reptiles may have fed
and protected their young in the same way the seagulls
look after their chicks on cliff nests today. After
they hatched from their eggs, baby pterosaurs could
not fly because their heads were too big and their
wings were too small. So one or both parents probably
brought the young food and watched over them until
their wings were strong enough to fly and they were
old enough to fend for themselves. One of the last
pterosaurs was the spectacular Quetzalcoatlus, named
after the traditional Mexican feathered snake-god
Quetzalcoatl. This huge creature, its head longer then
a man, was probably as big as a flying animal which it
lived. Quetzalcoatlus was so big that it could not
have taken off without help from the winds whistling
through the mountains and canyons of Texas, USA. Once
in the air, it could glide on the air currents for a
long time.

from Bryan, age 11, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

Where can we find other dinosar websites anybody?Me Thomas and my sister Joanne need other websites on dinosaurs.Anybody know any?
from Thomas, age 8, Manchester, ?, England; December 2, 2000


(One reboot later) Umm, where can you get Studio Max in Singapore? My school has it but I can't get it from them until next year(duh!). I've been looking for Max for the better part of the year. Nice models. Again, thanks for telling me where to get the model! Thanks!
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

Well the little group shows favoritism to tyrannosaurs and will not attack my arguement. Dr.Bakker DID write that raptors were highly agile no matter the size and kick boxers with claws that COULD CUT LIKE KNIVES! Haaa! Built like a cat claw and cat claws can cut just as good as hook. Those are giant claws on a raptor and Bakker said raptors hands could work like carving knives or sickles. You all attack me and distorted versions of my arguement not the true argument. Haha. Its obvious I won this round with logic and your favoritsm/dogmaticism lost. Get over your loss. To Levine and Lilian T. and the little ppl who make up characters, I bet your doiung all this big bad talking in a dark little computer room, and how do you have all this time to be on here if your in college? Get a life, go out and breathe some fresh air and sunshine. Thats spelled S-U-N-S-H-I-N-E.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

I don't mean to nitpick Honkie, but I think Tyrannosaurus would have not made it up to 50kph. 48.8 is a more realistic number.

But that would still make it faster than the 7-ton raptor, nice simulation by the way, where did you can AutoCAD?
from FD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

Stand down son, you're out of line. Prehaps you have forgotten that this is not an American chatroom but an international chatroom. You are making us Americans look very bad in front of the entire world. By the way, I really hope you can argue with facts and not by imaginary T-rex sized raptors. They did not exist. Your arguments run parallel to arguing the Iraqi army was deadiler if its T-72 tanks had lazer rangefinders and 120mm smoothbore guns. The raptors never reached T-rex size, so that argument cannot stand as it did nto exist in the first place.

BBD, your arguments have more holes than a target ship, not to mention your raw hostility. You can go down with your ship- and be remembered as a vailant but misguided person or you could abandon your ship and damage your pride for the truth. Face it, you are surrounded, outgunned, outnumbered and with no support. If you contuined to fight such a pitched battle, well, mercy on your soul.
from Sgt Illhalo, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 2, 2000

Well, I am intrested in this debate? Can I join in? What's this about a 7-ton raptor? Does this even exist? Anyway, I think Tyrannosaurus was certainly the deadilest predator, if you are talking about raw deadlyness, T.rex certainly had the most for a land based dinosaur. I think he would certainly kill any raptor, 7-ton or not.
from Kinder Surprise, age 13, Mansfeild, Texas, USA; December 2, 2000

sim2Okay, I have generated a raptor to your designs, and the simulation proves it's impossible for the 7-ton raptor to work. Here's how:

Firstly, the raptors have one of the shortest tibiae and metatarsals of any land based predatory dinosaur. This is not a problem for small raptors but imposes serious implications on a 7-ton raptor. The problem is weight. The raptor body plan was never designed to carry that much weight and its not surprising things can go seriously wrong. Firstly, the short and broad tibiae and metatarsals of the raptor will provide very little leverage to move all that bulk, of course it'll be able to walk, but sauropod style. At best at 15 kilometers hours at top speed. One need to know that Tyrannosaurus was capable of doing 50.

Another problem. This 7-ton raptor will not be capable of jumping(for obvious reasons) nor effective kicking. The reason lies in weight redistribution. If a small raptor kicks, its displacing about 15 kilos of weight. If the 7-ton raptor kicks, it will redistribute about a ton of weight! If it tried kicking like a small raptor would, it'll tip over to its side. Notice the prints of big predatory dinos? Their three toes are spread out wide to aid in a big base. Now our 7-ton raptor would use only two toes to do the task. Of course it could kick, but the highest would be to the knee, not quite enough to gore a Tyrannosaur like a triceratops would.

And what about those slashing claws on the forelimbs? Well, the simulation shows it would be hard to slash effectively with those arms in a seven ton raptor. If you'll look at the big carnivores like Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus, you would notice that their arms have been reduced leave weight for the head. If a seven-ton raptor decides to swipe, it would also experience serious balance problems by displacing about 900kilos of weight in very short order. Of course it's possible for a large predatory dino to have big forelimbs, but they literally lose a head in the process to make up weight. Physics plays a bigger role in how big carnivores look than in small ones.

You see, there's nothing wrong with the raptor body plan, the problem is in your plan. Mother Nature had a good reason for keeping the raptors small and this would be it. If a raptor was to be around 7 tons, it would have to lose that sickle claw and grow a third toe for a broad, stable base. Also, the raptor would have to have a new leg of slender and long tibiae and metatarsals. The limbs will have to be reduced if the raptor is going to rely on it's jaws to kill. In the end, you end up getting something looking like a Tyrannosaurid. It's impossible not to undergo drastic change if you're going to increase in size. Tyrannosaurus is actually a descendant of a group of small predatory dinosaurs not too unlike the small raptors, but in increasing the size, it had to undergo drastic change. It would also be the same for the raptors. Long story short, if you have a seven ton raptor design, it has to bee altered so drastically to work that it would not be called a raptor after that. Thank you

from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; Dec. 1, 2000

Anyway, the results of the poll at is out. Here are the results:

Agreed with the Tyrannosaur fans:
266 Votes, 79.8 percent

Agreed that another dinosaur species is far deadiler:
48 Votes, 14.4 percent

Agreed with BBD:
19 Votes, 5.7 percent

Okay, according to Democrazy (I didn't spell it wrongly!), the win goes to the Tyrannosaur fans, with a margin of 199 votes. Second place is taken by the people who believe that another dinosaur was deadiler and third place goes to BBD. I will be changing the topic to who was the king of the herbivorous dinosaurs, so please go to to vote!
from Volta, age 15, ?, Florida, USA; December 2, 2000

Anyway, thanks BBD, you were the last person I had expected to compliment my computer model. I thought it was very jury-rigged and badly done, thanks anyway.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

Well, Carchardontosaur, I say you better post it fast, cos I'm nto posting anymore until you do. The fanpic page is not a "HT" page.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

In that case I guess most of BBD's posts have to be removed. He really is testing everybody's patience over here. Anyway, have you gotten my simulation?
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000
Yes, it's online. JC

Sorry 'bout the delay on my drawings. Tomorrow I will be able to go to a scanner.
I have an interesting theory I would like to put out there. Wether it's true or not you be the judge. Perhaps that some hadrosaurs could have used their crests as cooling agents? Lemme explain. A lambeosaur for instance bends down, making masses of blood rush to it's head. Providing the head didn't cool off quickly, the animal would die. It would flush blood up into it's crest, and as the wind came by the brain and head would cool.

from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

Well Alvero, the dinosaurs lived on earth.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

Well, if you have really won, lets find out, once and for all. All those who agree with the Tyrannosaur fans say ney, if its BBD, say Aye.
from Grace, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

Well, I must say BBD's behaving like those mordern day Neo-Nazis who claim they won World War 2 despite the whole world telling them we the English won the war. I guess BBD's one of them. It's disgraceful I tell you, seeing such a young mind in utter and vermeant denial that he would go to the extent of claiming I am a created character. It's a sure sign of that yankee going dotty. Is he a democrat? That explains it if he is.

Anyway, I would like to tell everybody that BBD's last few posts were not valid. He's nto arguing on the grounds of paleontology. Oh yes monkeyboy(if that's your real name.) I have to tell you I swore I saw a pantherine called Panteria Leo kill a hyaenodont some time ago. Are you refering to the cenozoic or modern forms?
from Levine, age 24, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

Hey, no problam BBD, I'll generate a 7ton raptor for you. Give a a few hours. Is it a scaled up raptor? Which do you want? A skaled up dieno or a scaled up velo?
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

Ignore him, he's out of his mind, as long as we can prevent others from listening to him. Look at freevote, WE'VE WONNNNNNNN!
from Lilian Tay, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

lorenzWell, the next old blood is out. It's shorter though.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

HAHAHAHA!!!! Yes lilian T. Im about to be blown away by 5 or 6 ppl and ALLLLL there alteregos and made up characters! Hahaha! Logic aint so common in here. Id say theres about 10 or more ppl on here. Hey guys, again I say, you attack me more than the argument showing Ive won. Poor kids.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

There is no way a pantherine could kill a hyeanodont. Both of them the same size, the hyaenodont with that big ol head and teeth and the panthering with those little claws and small head. You are jus trying to argue or you dont know youz cenozoic mammals Levine!
from monkeyman, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

Actually, I'm at school. I no longer have internet access at my home, but I'm hoping its just temporary. I have nothing to say about this raptor/T. rex thing.
from Brad, age 13, Fenelon Falls, ON, Canada; December 1, 2000

from alvaro m., age 11, INDIO, CALIFORNIA, U.S.A; December 1, 2000

Excellent computer models indeed! A tyrannosaurus rex could rip apart a deinonych. But since Ive been saying a 7ton tyrannosaur against a 7ton raptor, and noone will go ahead on that argument. AND since Im attacked more than the argument itself by so many alteregos and yall insist Im a raptor fan when Im not simply and basically shows in fact Ive won this arguement. Thanx for trying to hurt my feelings! You let me know Ive WON! I feel so good.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

The shape of the backward facing pubis (one of the hip bones) indicates that dromaeosaurs sat upright like dogs, rather than on their undersides like tyrannosaurs or modern birds. The base of the tail was extremely flexible, capable of bending through ninety degrees in most directions, and probably served as a balancing rod for changing direction in a fast run, just as modern cheetahs use their long tails. Dromaeosaurs were NOT the fastest dinosaurs, as indicated by the structure of their legs (short ankles, long femora), although they could certainly have outrun a human, but not a Tyrannosaurus. It has been said (by Dr Thomas Holtz Jr I think) that dromaeosaur evolution had sacrificed speed for agility. Rather than rely only on speed like a modern cheetah, they may have ambushed prey like other modern cats, using a quick "grapple and slash" technique. Their sharp claws, grasping forehands, and counter balancing tails suggest to me that small dromaeosaurs may have been good climbers, a view shared by Dr Robert Bakker in his book Raptor Red.
from Lubin, age 15, Sidney, ?, Australia; December 1, 2000

Sauropods are an enigma. We know their bodies were huge and their brains were small. We wonder how they got so big and what kind of a job those tiny brains did of managing all that mass. They appear to have been massive protein sources, devoid of obvious defenses and readily harvested by any carnivore. We marvel at their ability to get enough food through their tiny mouths to nourish themselves. Yet they were extremely successful, dominating the Jurassic and in some places lasting until the end of the Cretaceous. Let's take a look at these issues. Were they really a problem for these giants, or is the problem ours for failing to understand how they evolved to take advantage of their world? Dimwitted or not, I think I can propose a reason for their success.
How large does a brain have to be? Although we usually feel that as a body gets larger the brain must also expand, we really have no definite basis for that assumption. A brain has a lot of functions, but many of them involve automatic behavior. An order to breathe or a signal to release a hormone can be performed by a small number of nerve cells and yet have a major effect on a distant organ as a large muscle unit reacts or a distant gland releases large supply of an active substance. An order for a leg to walk can require the same number of brain cells in a large animal as in a small one, it's just that larger muscles are following the orders. Delicacy of movement and fine motor coordination certainly benefit from more neurons, but when the beast being controlled weighs forty tons or more, does delicacy really matter? At that size, an animal makes its own path rather than worrying about staying on a trail. Many functions, such as finding food and mates can be hard-wir! ed into fairly small units of nerve tissue and still leave some room for variability in their expression. Tiny lizards and fish, and even insects, can show relatively complex behavior with brains the size of a pinhead. Great intellectual function was almost certainly lacking in Dinosaurs as it is in practically every creature known, but that is not really a disadvantage for survival in most cases.

We wonder how these giant meat sources defended themselves against hungry and well armed predators. It has been suggested that they used their tails as whips and that is certainly plausible. Anyone who has ever tried to handle a two pound iguana that wants to be left alone knows how much havoc a flailing tail can wreak. An advantage of this defense is that it would not require a lot of mental power to be effective. They also could have used their massive necks and heads as clubs. A predator would have had to be very lucky to grab a neck as it swung by without getting slapped into the next era. The largest contemporary carnivores were a fraction of the weight of a medium sized sauropod and I doubt that any predator would ever have attacked a fully grown adult. The penalty for such a rash act would likely have been pulverization. As a modern example, elephants have no serious predators unless they are very young or very sick. Their mere size is too intimidating. Now young sauropods would have been in jeopardy until they put on a lot of weight. Herds certainly could have provided some security, although I suspect that the greatest threat to growing up would have involved getting stepped on by their elders. Mortality was probably very high when they were young. They may have made up for this by building a lot of nests and laying a lot of eggs. After all, there is a practical limit to egg size which is approached in much smaller animals than sauropods, but a huge dinosaur could make a huge number of eggs without spending very much energy relative to her size.

Now about that size... One of the great mysteries about these long-necked giants is how they managed to get enough nutrition to grow and sustain their incredible bulk. Most of the plants available to them were probably tough, such as conifers and cycads. The tender deciduous leaves and grasses that nourish our contemporary large herbivores had not yet evolved. In addition to the marginal quality of their food supplies, their harvesting eqiupment seemed marginal at best. Their dentition was generally rake-like arrays of pencil shaped teeth. Some had spoon shaped nippers, but nothing to chop up the vegetation so it could be exposed to their digestive juices. They probably did some additional grinding in their crops, using gastroliths to mash the foliage their teeth provided. Even at that, they would still have required a very complex gut to process this type of plant material with its low nutritional value. Did they develop multichambered stomachs and use their gastroliths for pulping as effectively as modern ruminants use complex teeth to chew their cud? Maybe, but I can suggest an easier solution to the need for extended digestive processing. Refection: don't take two bites at the apple; just eat the apple twice. Hind gut fermentation uses a large cecum as a storage vat that allows bacteria to work over tough plant food and break it down to usable nutrients. There is still a problem. The cecum's walls are not good for absorption of anything but water. Nutrient assimilation has to occur in the small intestine, but to get to the cecum for the all-important bacterial processing, the food has already gone through the small bowel. Since the intestinal tract is a one-way system, there is only one way for the food to get back to where it will do any good. It has to go out and get back in again. Refection is used successfully by many animals, including rabbits, langurs and to some extent, elephants. By using their colons to do most of the work, the giant dinosaurs could get away with simple teeth. They would have had to rake the first time and scoop the second, but neither requires particularly strong or complex dentition. It may have been an advantage for these animals to have a small brain if this was the daily culinary experience they had to to expect. This type of nutrition may also explain the structure of sauropod necks. Traditionally, we think that they evolved long necks in order to reach leaves high in trees. Obviously they were long, but in many cases, careful analysis of their skeletons indicates that they were not really able to raise their heads very far at all. Perhaps they evolved to reach around rather than up. This may provide another weapon for their defensive arsenals. Toxic halitosis could have had a protective effect, even when they were babies. Perhaps this seems rather gross to you, but that is your penalty for having such a large brain.
from Darren T., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

I have observed with growing alarm the improper useage of the term "raptor" when collectively describing a variety of small carnivorous dinosaurs. This term is in widespread use in the popular press, movies, books, and now,after attending Dinofest'2000 I see it is being used as a descriptive term in scientific presentations and ultimately I guess it will appear in their scientific publications too. Am I the only one who objects to the use of the term "raptor" for small theropod dinosaurs?

"Raptor" when used in reference to dinosaurs is no doubt a contraction of_Velociraptor_, the name of the dinosaurs featured so prominently in Jurassic Park_. The recent proliferation of dinosaur names rooted in -raptor hasn't helped much, either
from Darren T., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000 is a cool webpage, it charts the "raptor revision" going on in paleontology.
from Darren T., age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

Don't u pple have to sleep? It's allready 2 am!
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

Very good computer model, how did you do it?

Anyway, the next old blood is going to be delayed. You can vote for this debate at Lets not argue anymore, it's dissing off people coming here to talk about other things. Frankly, I have much better things to do than to prove a prefectly proveable theory that Tyrannosaurus was the deadilest.

Anyway where is Brad? BBD must have dised him off. BBD, you're one inconciderate fellow. Ever wondered why everybody's so mean to you? Well, before you blame others, look at yourself're discusting.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

Yo man, I am a Raptr fan but I aint' no voting for BBD man, BBD's mean dude man, I am his is no friends yo! You T-rexa fans are correct mano, BBD's wrong mano. Raptr is my favoutire dinosaur mano.

(Sorry mano, I got bad case of insomma.)
from Raptr fan, age 15, Miami, Florida, USA; December 1, 2000

Wow, this debate is going extreme! Even computer models have been made!

Anyway, I went to freevote to vote for the Tyrannosaurus fans as I felt they did better in this debate.
from Norman, age ?, ?, ?, ?; December 1, 2000

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