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The Test of Time
A Novel by I. MacPenn
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Dino Talk: A Dinosaur Forum

Early Jan. 2001

Once again, I'd like to warn people from calling the Rigby Rex a seperate species based on its size. As of yet, there is still nothing to suggest the Tyrannosaurus Rigby found is a new species. Besides, Tyrannosaurus Imperator is the name of the fossil, not the name of a new species (there goes the media again) Prehaps something should be done about the Dino Warz?

Besides, Horner and a few other experts have been turning up FIVE other extra-sized Rexes similar in size to Rigby's and certainly larger than Giganotosaurus and that new so called "biggest" carnivore yet undescribed in South America. I don't see us calling them Tyrannosaurus Imperator.

But it looks like the South Americans spoke too soon when they thought they had the better of the North's Tyrant Lizard. It fustrates me to see them go on and make up a fallacy about Giganotosaurus stopping T.Rex from crossing over to the South. (And not to mention a expert said that!) That myth contuines to persist.
from Josh, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 17, 2001

Hello brudder. How are you?
from Short F., age 14, ?, ?, ?; January 15, 2001

Well, welcome back. BBD is gone ..., and we have uncontested control of Dino Talk WA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Okay, back to earth. DW, you missed an entire debate with another person called ..., like ..., he's gone too. I wonder why people always threaten to leave when they lose? Anyway, meet my brother, Short F.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 15, 2001

I know, the Iguanodons are poorly done, but the carnotaurs were pretty cool.
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; January 15, 2001

My God, you people are still on the whole T-Rex vs. Raptor debate? I guess some things never change :). Well, to anyone who cares to listen, the reason I have been "away" so long was that a lightning bolt fried my modem and I had to get a new one(Thank God for Pacific Internet). So, what have I been missing (or have I missed nothing at all)?
from DW, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 15, 2001

I'm baaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaack...
from DW, age 14, Singapore!, ?, ?; January 15, 2001

Hey guys, what do you think of the idea of a Dino Warz board game? It's pretty popular with my younger siblings. Do you want me to post it up here?
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; January 14, 2001

Dinosaur? What a spastic show! Why do you one to have anything to do with it? Maybe they're the real reason of the extinction of the dinosaurs, that we made so many dumb shows about them that they got so embarrased and went off to die.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 14, 2001

So what's with this message board? Why is it a chatroom instead of harmless dino talk? Whatever happened to the old days when children were ? Oh well, it's all down the drains. Now ers are cool, clothes are worse than ever, and school is a thing that you talk about as "bad"?
from loo loo, age 62, Berington, CA, USA; January 14, 2001

When is the Disney DINOSAUR movie on video?
from Brad, age 14, Woodville, ON, Canada; January 14, 2001

That's odd JC, I am the latest addition, but the date of last addition under my name says 5 Jan!
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; January 14, 2001
I've changed it. JC

Take a break form all the unhappy things, the next Old Blood is out.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; January 12, 2001

You know, it's odd how such a little thing can develop into such a big affair. The whole notion of a true Dinosaur fan fiction started in the 27th of September 2000. I was just fiddeling around with an idea to take a dig at the raptor fans (the anti-T.rex votes by the raptor fans were pretty rampant then) and as a treat to all T.rex fans. You can still find the fan fic if you go quite far back to find it. But for your convience, I'll provide it here:

Welcome to the eonal dinosaur deathmatch, the contest in which all the dinosaurs fight to see who will be king. In the last contet, Tyrannosaurus Rex beat Allosaurus to be the champion, will he be able to defend his title, lets find out! This contest only happens once every 65 million years, so you better catch it now! Defending Champion:Sue the T-Rex Opponents:Triceatops, Pachycephalosaurs, Velociraptor ,Utaraptor ,Megaraptor, Gigantosaurus, Ankylosaurus, Stegosaurus and Gallimius.
T-Rex:ROAAAAAARRRRR Who's first?
Pachy:Me! I'll take you out! (CHARGES.....POW!) Ha!direct hit!
T-Rex:Is that all you can do?
Pachy:Did I hurt you?
T-Rex:No but mabye something like this will work!(Crunch!)
Pachy:Ahhh! You bit through my thick skull! Impossible! (Dies) (Pahcy's down, triceratops steps in the arena.)
Triceratops: I avenge you! (charges with horns lowered) YAAAAAAAA! Opps I missed! AHHHHHHH NOOO! STOP! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH....(dies)
T-Rex:Yummy! Who's next?!
Stegosaurus: That......would! (Oh No!Stegosaurus is too dumb too do anything, this is no fight!)
T-Rex:No contest! How about you Gigantosaurus? Gigantosaurus:(stomps into arena) Yeah, its my turn to be king, I am bigger than you!
T-Rex:But I am stronger and smarter an faster! Take that (crunch!)
Gigantosaurus:AHHH! My leg! You bit off my leg! (Looks like a stumping moment for Gigantosaurus, he bleeds to death)
T-Rex: Ha! size dosent matter!
Gallimimus:You're right about that!I'll show you! (Starts pecking)
T-Rex: No No, you got to try something like this...ROARRRR!
Gallimimus: AHHHHHHH (FAINTS AND DIES!) (Looks like Gallimimus really did have a bird-like heart after all, a chicken heart! he died of fright!)
T-Rex: Sighhhh the stuff they send me these days...... (Ankylosaurus plods up)
Ankylosaurus: You watch me do you in!(swipes with tail)..huh? missed!
T-Rex: I saw you do that move on my sister Suzie, in "Walking with Dinosaurs) It won't work on my now! (Rams Ankylosaurus, who turns turtle.)
Ankylosaurus: Help!Help! AHHHHH (Screams as Sue rips into his underside...dies)
T-Rex: Common, Raptors, you next.
Raptors: Yeah, you're one, we're many! (SPLAT!)
Utaraptor:Hey, no fair, you stepped on Velociraptor!
T-Rex: Common, He was so small, I couldn't help it.
Megaraptor: Well, I am too big to be squashed! (leaps at T-Rex)
T-Rex: Ah, this is easy! (ducks)
Megaraptor: Huh? ahhhhhhh (sails over T-Rex and lands hard) My leggg! I broke my leg!
T-Rex: Serves you right, you weight a ton but still try to jump 6 meters into the air. It's a small wonder you broke your leg.
Megaraptor:Get her Utaraptor, get her for m-(is cut off when Sue steps on his head, crushing it.)
Utaraptor: Haaaaa Yaaaa (jumps onto Sue)
T-Rex: ow! (acts out scene in jusassic park where the T-Rex swarmed by the raptor swings it into it's jaw and bites it.)
Utaraptor:Where did you learn that?
T-Rex: Wathc Jurassic Park, it's not accucrate, but I learned a few moves from it.
Utaraptor: Thank yo-AHHHHHH (Dies as Sue chomps down)
T-Rex: Roarrrrr! I am the champ! hey what's this. (ANOTHER TEAM OF Opponents:Triceatops, Pachycephalosaurs, Velociraptor ,Utaraptor ,Megaraptor, Gigantosaurus, Ankylosaurus, Stegosaurus and Gallimius steps up)
Opposing force: We'll get you! everybody attack her!
T-Rex: Hey, that's not fair!
Opposing Force: Ha, we know, but we can't wait another 65 million years!......Hey, who's that? (A huge shadow of a Tyrannosaurus of incredible looms over them.)
T-Rex: Thank you emperor Sue-Imperator!
T-Imperator: Anytime queen Sue-Rex!
T-Rex: Say, what brings you here?
T-Imperator: Naaaa nobody wanted to fight me for the title of Emperor, that's why I came here to watch you. I see, you are holding up our family name pretty well.
T-Rex: Of course, the Tyrannosaurus will always be the rulers.
T-Imperator: Well, I gotta go now, bye little sister!
T-Rex:Bye big sister!
The End: It looks like T-Rex gets my vote for my favoutire dinosaur!

Well, this was the one that started it all, now, dinosaur fiction is quite a blooming affair, with up to 10 major autors writing. You could be next.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; January 11, 2001

I'm not really the type to juist sit by and watch people accuse me of being "pathetic" or "goofy", so I am inclined to respond.

"Ive always succeeded in science so far and I still will..."

Hmm...a pretty daring statement to make, I wonder how you came to such an idea? Maybe that's why you get so offended when we challange your views...(gasp) we might break your "unblemished" record!

"They never answer me when I ask where they found this information so I can see it for myself and get caught up."

If I wasn't wrong, didn't Billy Macdraw just give you a whole list of such material? Anyway, it was Levine that stated the raptor rethinking in this webpage in the first place. You really like to quote what experts say do you? In fact, you seem to value what they say more than the what the actual evidence says! Don't you have your own opinions? Also, may I quote you?

"As to size of prey, this probably varied with the predator. .
This has been answered by a paleontologist, professor, which means, what he says is more than anything honkietong and levine say... "not to diss you levine, your the man"

Hmm, I like the way you quote, but on a closer look, this statement does not mean anything at all! It simply states that prey size varied with predator, it doesn't say that they must have hunted big prey! Heck, your "paleontologist professor" could be saying that the raptors were hunters of small prey for all that's worth. Stop screaming on the net and go read a textbook on correct scientific procedures before you shoot your mouth off.

"Notice the pettiness, chandler, like of Josh. Trying to quote a whole dictionary to me."

Hmm, if you note, Josh also didn't know the meaning of "equivocal" at first. He was kind enough to share it with people who might not know it here. If you don't want to learn, it's alright with me.

" I wish he would stop trying to get me upset, it dont work and it gets annoying when your trying to relax and someone is trying to tease, really sad..."

Sorry, but my world dosen't exactly revolve around you. Does it look like I vaguley care if you're happy or sad? I have better things to do than to attack you. But seriously, your points are really easy to shoot down for the simple fact they are weak, geddit W.E.A.K. Thank you.

"To tell the truth, its more of trying to insult than dispatch. I ask a question, and all this blows up in aggression and bitterness."

Oh really? It's more like you who blows up in agression and bitterness when we correct you. Notice eariler, we corrected you nicely, but you, before you accuse me, let me show you.

I answered:
"Based on physics and biology, there is no reason to suggest how a Utahraptor could have survived a fall from the provibal Iguanadon. Can you offer an answer Madhatter? Can you suggest how a Utahraptor could handle 100 kilonewtons?"

I hardly think anybody would think this an insult.

But you answered:

"Honkie TOng, I do have an answer for you. Raptors could swerve, twist and move in mid-air and thats fact. Honkie Tong, go back to the other forum, your not a real scientist and all you wanna do is fight because your shallow and a snively, nerdy little worm without a life. Get outta here. Ive seen what youve said, about the T.rex fan withwhoever and in science, there is not a place for people who lie, falsify and tell what is popular just cause its the popular vote. Most of what you say is your opinion and thats ALL it is. HAhaha"

Ah ha! I'll give you another example:

My brother, Short F. said:
"Trash tok? What tokking you brudder? We got tok trash meh? You show us lah then we believe. My brudder say aready, don't accuse us, show us evidence, if not you're the one tokking trash! rite?"

Apparently, you've accused him of talking trash and he demands you show him evidence of that, but if you were really the good(and victimised) guy you make yourself out to be, you wouldn't have answered:

"See I like to talk dinosaurs, and many of people Im aorund dont like to. So how come when I talk on here, people who dont even know me mess with me? S... and his kind are cowards."

Hmm, not too good a response is it? My brother demanded an answer abut why you accused him of talking trash and if you were really waht you said, you wouldn't have called him a coward. Before you point fingers at anybody else, note your own behaviour first. Nobody is going out to kill you.

Josh made his motives rather clear, that he's not after yer blood, but you accused him of being petty. Hmm, isn't that a rather clear case of unprovoked overdefensiveness on your part?

I hope I have responded adequately to anybody who may be inclined to view MadHatter as a victim. Thank you. Now lets get back to the science. One more thing, I'm not ganging up on you, apparently, everybody finds you annoying and decided hamtam you. Not my fault, I can't stop them.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 10, 2001

Soon, after Old Blood ends. The third run of Dino Warz will be bigger, have more characters and some spinoffs.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; January 10, 2001

?, I finished extinction is for a reason by both Scott and Alex dying off. Though, I think, I should write an epilogue.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 10, 2001

Billy Macdraw, when will the new Dino Warz come out? I realy think Old Blood is exiting but I am also a Dino Warz fan. Since the Dino Warz counterstrike, you haven't been so up to date with Dino Warz. Brad, you realy need to get up to date.
from Reuben B., age 7, Needham, MA, USA; January 10, 2001

Err...anything you say, Ruben.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 10, 2001

I am starting a new novel called Mesozoic Techno-zoic. It has some things I predict will happen in twenty-first century. For those who want to know who Momasaurus is, she is Debisaur. (I know that because she is my mom)
from Reuben B., age 7, Needham, MA, USA; January 10, 2001

Wow Reuben B.! Mesozoic Techno-zoic is awesome! What a cool idea.
from Mommasaurus, age 39, pangea, MA, USA; January 9, 2001

I, too, have never ceased to be amazed by the incredulus claims made by certain paleontologists on the raptors.

I must admit that some of these claims are so convincing, that faced with a constant barage of them, one becomes more and more inclined to believe them.

Also, one is tempted to believe them precisely becasue they tell us what we want to believe- that the raptors were the deadilest, pack hunting, fast and clean killers of big animals.

Restraint and rational rethinking of the evidence are the bane of any urban lifestyle, Hence, these paleontologists either avoid mentioning these essentials, or present them reluctantly in fine print, often without emphasis.

Advising overzealous individuals on thinking about the raptors sensibly has thus become a gargantuan task.

Often, they seek a incredible and incredulous word from paleontologists to rid themselves of any doubts, failing to be convinced that their original ideas need to be thought through slowly and nonommiting contradictory evidence that may help them to achive a accucrate picture.

I'm also troubled by people who scream: "Come on, its obvious raptors were big prey hunters, just look at the claws, they were hard hitters!"

It's ridiculous to exhort a statement like this for such superfical reasons.

Our society must not adopt the compulsion to accept ideas about dinosaurs based on how cosmetic, romantic or exciting they may be, ommiting the fact that these ideas may have been based on sketchy or fragmentory or equivocal evidence.

Rather, the priority should be to achive a rational, detailed and nonommiting approach to dinosaurs and attain an accucrate view of them by questioning, not accepting exciting ideas.

Sad to say, there is no shortcut to effectively obtaining even a vaguely correct view of the raptors.

Looking at Tyrannosaurus, much ink had been spilled and many a fossil have been studied and debated into finally putting him up as a powerful predator with keen senses with some form of social behaviour decended from the Coelurosaurs, as opposed the simple and widely-accepted old theory of it being a slow, solitary scavenger with poor eyesight decended from the Carnosaurs. One can just see the great difference that can be put up once ideas are put aside and the evidence restudied in even greater detail. Needless to say, the new ideas about T.Rex were not popular at first, but have now emerged as the shining glory of detailed paleontological work.

Looking at the raptors, one cannot but must notice the great difference in the amount of work done restudying the evidence. We seem to have gone so far on vague and sketchy evidence that we have forgotten to restudy the evidence at hand and draw new and more accucrate evidence from it. Granted, if we did so, the new, and more accucrate image of the raptors will be extemely different indeed.

But do people want it that way? Maybe we don't, maybe we prefer to think of the raptors as the superefficent movie-monsters they so vividly represent in our minds. Any other idea or approach may be considered heretical or offensive. We don't want to change our way, we don't want to look at things from a clearer point of view, we hate and detest the paradigm shift.

But that we cannot avoid, it will happen, even as we contuine to support our cherished ideas about the raptors, the true fossils sit in the musuem and scream out for somebody to take another look at them, a closer look.

And like T.Rex, our old ideas about the raptors will be forcefully, painfully changed, just like the changes, Newton, Einstein and Lorenz have bestowed upond us. The paradigm will shift.

It's almost paradigm and our old ideas about the raptors will not matter, for everything looks different, on the other side.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 8, 2001

Well, I'm not sure if many people here follow popular ideas, they seem to have very accucrate and realistic view about the raptors and Tyrannosaurus, if you ask me.
from Josh, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 7, 2001

Well, BBD, Bakker's ideas about Megalosaurus are classed under "minority ideas". That means a theory that not too many paleontologists see as likely to be correct. The problem is that the public is too "Bakker" friendly. They take almost everything he says seriously, true or not.

Giganotosaurus probally weight about 6-7 tons. I find estimates for 8-9 tons a little excessive considering the fact that that animal was only marginally bigger than "Sue", the till-now biggest T.Rex. I noticed there was a little "must override T.Rex" fever by the South Americans when Giganotosaurus was discovered, as if they wanted so desperately to get the better of Tyrannosaurus. It's no surprise if they had "blown up" certain facts to make Giganotosaurus look more impressive, but I find the idea that it being just a mere 4 feet longer and having a lighter skull but weighing a third more than T.Rex hard to believe. Giganotosaurus was probally lighter than we thought, just like T.Rex, whose weight estimates have fallen from 15 tons to 6 tons in the years.
from Josh, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 7, 2001

Well thats great you think for yourself and dont follow the popular idea like most people on this forum do. Josh, I see why you disagree about megalosaurus, but is it your opinion or something put forth by other paleontologists? If it is, then where is it?
from bbd, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 7, 2001

from Jon, age 11, hanover, PA, ?; November 17, 2000

How did extinction for a reason end? Did the Rex drive the raptors to extinction?
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; November 14, 2000

Well, I'll be posting another Dino Warz pusedo-bio as a follow up to Honkie's terrific job. It tells you even more.

Anyway, many people has assumed that Sue is Sue at the field musuem. This is not true, the Dino Warz Sue is not the other Sue, but rather, she was named after it. I needed to add this clarification as the other "Sue" might be male.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; January 7, 2001

How heavy was Giganotosaurus?
from Monica, age ?, OK, ?, USA; January 7, 2001

Well, I can't blame you, about a year or two ago, it was the common perception of the public that Tyrannosaurus was a full time scavenger and yes, the now-dead myth of T.Rex-cannot-see-me-if-I-freeze was still alive and kicking then. How much have our preceptions of T.Rex changed! From 2000 till now, I have read so many in-dept sutdies on T.Rex that has slowly changed him from the slow-moving, solitary, weak-toothed scavenger to the deadilest, social but antisocial, pair bonding, group-hunting, keenly nosed and eyed and super-jawed swift predator/scavenger. Yes, the new T.Rex is certainly different.
from Josh, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 7, 2001

Hmm, you must have seen "Beyond T.Rex" have you? Well, for once, I tend to have serious doubts about Bakker's claims, and thus, have pulled myself away from the common Bakker-friendly, dinosaur enamoured public and hirled myself into the unfamilar world of critical, thinking paleontologists. Alright, such poetics aside. Well, for once, I do have serious doubts about the validity of Bakker's claims for Megalosaurus being gigantomus. Call me a skeptic, but I prefer to see at least a 50 percent complete fossil before making any claims. For once, I am critical of Bakker in "predicting" the maximum size of Megalosaurus.

But anyway, Horner (Somebody who I tend to disagree with a lot regarding Tyrannosaurus) has found 5 new Extra-Large fossils of Tyrannosaurus Rex Osborn that smash Bakker's yet-validated predictions of the Megalosaurus elusive super-size not to mention the yet-excaveted South-American supercarnivore. much for "Beyond T.Rex"...I though it was a cool show anyway.
from Josh, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 7, 2001

Hmm, I suppose so, but the quick thinking Hardosaurs would certainly outwit him had he been in the cretacious, Yup, T.Rex was certainly the baddest in the cretacious.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 7, 2001

We all know Megalosaurus was the king predator. Hes the biggest, therefore one on one, the baddest.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 6, 2001

Josh, I realize my story was full of errors, but, keep in mind, I wrote it a year or two ago when people thought raptors were the king predators.
from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 6, 2001

These are writing tips for those who want to write a good dino show us like story.

Story: The writing has to be very strong so the reader almost feels like it's realy hapening.

Education: It has to have a small leson at the end. (bad things come to ends, friends vs. fans, respect each other's religion, etc.)

Including people: Have real people in the story (Honkie Tong, Chandler, Billy Macdraw, etc.) so some readers are part of it.

Comidy: Dino-show-us has lots of humour in it. Alot of it includes dino science in it, so unless your an expert, do your reserch before writing.

Script: The stories are in the script format. You may be confused by it at first, but if your used to Dino Warz, Special, and Dino-show-us, it'll be very easy.

All of these elements combinded make Dino-show-us.
from Reuben B., age 7, Needham, MA, USA; January 6, 2001

The new Dino-show-us 5 is out now. If you want to know who X. is, use clues in the writing. I hope you like it.
from Reuben B., age 7, Needham, MA, USA; January 6, 2001

Another thing, don't you think its strange that people assume that Dilophosaurus had a poisionous bite. Some even go as far to suggest that it could spit poision. Well, I know that reptile spit has alot of nasty chemicals in it, but I don't see any evidence to suggest that Dilophosaurus was poisionous at all, let alone spit. Prehaps you could put this right JC, just like you have done to the T.Rex was not necessay green.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 5, 2001

from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; January 5, 2001

For most of recorded history humans have viewed our world as having been placed here for our benefit and use. We are finally beginning to understand that this planet has been home to millions of other species over hundreds of millions of years. Each of them evolved to take the maximum possible advantage of the ecological niche available to it. Dinosaurs dominated this terrestrial frame more successfully and longer than any other group of animals since the first vertebrates crawled onto the land. How did they do it? The basic theme that runs through all of my writing is that they were not dragons or other fantastical monsters. They had to accomplish their domination under the same rules of physiology and evolution common to all organisms. A lot of what passes for Dinosaur Science in the popular press today ignores this basic truth, which seems to occur out of enthusiasm for such an exciting subject rather than any deliberate attempt to mislead. In my education in both Zoology and Medicine I have learned a lot about anatomy and physiology as they apply to a functional organism. Personally, I find it exciting to figure out how Dinosaurs became such amazing animals and how they solved the problems of survival with what is basically the same protoplasm that Life on Earth has used for more than a billion years and is still using today. This is really a lot more interesting than just thinking of them as figments of our imagination. If you want fantasy, go dream about dragons and pack-hunting, hot blooded, superdeadily raptors.
from Jon F, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 5, 2001

I'm working on the next Old Blood. Watch for it. Old Blood is nearing an end soon. The new Dino Warz is next.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

I believe your "talking to a wall" statement works both ways.
from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

I've just read EIFAR and I must say it's quite good, but I do have a few questions though:

How did the raptors kick through to the olfactory nerve of the Rex? They would be kicking the skull and the only way through is via the nostrils. Also, in life, the olfactory nerves should be a foot in and close to the brain. How did a three nich deep gash disable it?

And even if the female rex was smell-impaired, how did she die? Didn't the super-keen hearing and eyesight of the Tyrannosaurids take over, couldn't the female rely on these keen senses to hunt too? Why didn't her mate keep her alive like what was done to Sue when it suffered a compound fracture of its ankle and was unable to hunt or scavenge?

Also, a final question. Save for the jaws, the neck is the next most powerful part of the Tyrannosaur's body, a powerhouse of muscles with the spinal cord buried deep within the spine and the vital blood vessels buried under one and a half feet of muscle. So how did Scott manage to hit the jugular given all the "armour" he had to punch through?

Well, these are just some of my questions.
from Josh, age 12, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

I must mention Josh here, he's incredibly knowledged for a 12 year old, articulate too. Are you really 12? I'm impressed.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

Really? Thanks. I still hope to improve though.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

Well, here you have it, my first drawn picture for a long while. Say JC, the tumbnail could not show oin my browser, do you know the reason and how to remedy it?
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001
I forgot to upload the thumbnail - it works now. Nice picture! JC

Hmm, it's not very common here in Singapore too. I only managed to find it in a bookstore after searching for some time. And not to mention it was the second-last copy. Pity though, it's a good book.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

Well, not exactly a fast trot, he probally could charge as he had more of the cursorial adaptations of his weight class. My best guess is, he probally made it up to 50 clicks an hour, which is very fast for his size. Doing some lateral thinking, it would have made him capable of capturing just about any animal above 3 tons in his world. T.Rex wasn't exactly built like an elephant. He was faster and more aglie. Elephants did not need to avoid horns and chase food. Anyway, tracks of large meat-eating dinosaurs which are externally similar to T.Rex shows that they were very agile, sometimes hopping on one foot after attacking prey. So yes, T.Rex was probally extremely agile and fast, not for a long distance though. It was unlikely both of his feet ever left the ground though.
from Josh, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

Jc what is the AOL keyword for this site. I need to know this A.S.A.P.
from firebird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001
We don't have an AOL keyword; if someone can tell us how to get one, please let me know (I don't use AOL and know nothing about it). JC

Brad, you've been worring me! When are you gonna post another Dinosaur story?
I finally finished extinction is for a reason! Check it out.

from Carchardontosaur, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

"The New T. Rex" isn't on, and I'm not sure where else to look.
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; January 3, 2001

Well, so I was wrong about the distance running. T.rex was a fast walker, and thats in fact, true. As far as "raptor vs. T.rex", theyre equal, but like I said before, the raptor family was far more deadly than the tyrannosaur family, but telling the "T.rex fans this is like talking to a wall, your too concentrated on one dinosaur. As far as T.rex running, he was too heavy, being size and weight, he probably did a fast walk like elephants, or a trot.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

Chapter 2 of Raxal vs. Raptor is now out. Dino-show-us 5 will be out very soon. It will start a new seson of Dino-show-us. I hope you like both.
from Reuben B., age 7, Needham, MA, USA; January 3, 2001

Hello!Please, can you help me?
I must do for the school a wallpaper about the
Maiasaura!I would like a lot of things of him.
Do you know something about the Maiasaura?

The nice girl!
from A Nice Girl, age 13, Near Berlin, ?, Germany; January 3, 2001

Yes Josh, I do agree. The concept of Tyrannosaurus pursuing its prey for long distances inspires incredulity. Tyrannosaurus rex certainly looks the type for speed, but I don't think his legs were built for resisting the stress of long distance running, strong as they might be. Looking at the legs of the Hardosaurs, they were the legs of a slower animal but they were certainly built to run far. Which is about the situtation you would find in an ambush hunter: The hunter is usually faster than the prey, but is unable to keep up with it for long distances.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

Thanks Honkie, I guess its a bit like the Daishi, but alot faster and more forgiving.
from Billy Macdraw, age 18, ?, ?, ?; January 3, 2001

And as for our cherished Tyrannosaurus rex. What of him? In my view, Tyrannosaurus clearly does not share all of the cursorial adaptations of modern mammals. But that's OK. Tyrannosaurs had more of the aforementioned cursorial adaptations than any other animal in its size class and , hence, would have been fast enough. Maybe not as fast as Bakker describes them, but they were definitely in the race. They were not so adapted for cursorial pursuit as modern cheetahs, but so what? Their prey, which may have included such genera as Edmontosaurus and Triceratops, were NOT gazelles! And if T.rex was an active hunter, it may have been able to mortally wound most animals with a single shoveling bite, so marathon runs need not have been a part of its repertoire.

This is not a post regarding any raptor vs T.rex thing, but I'd like to point out the mistake I think you made when you described T.Rex as a distance runner.
from Josh, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Distance running for Tyrannosaurus? I'm sorry BBD, but I don't buy your theory about T-rex running for distance after prey. T-rex was certainly very fast for his size, but I don't think he could keep up his incredible speed for too long.

I envision T-rex as more of an ambush hunter, especially in the mixed
growth that was its most likely habitat (according to THE COMPLETE T.
REX). Can't be big and a chase hunter in heavy growth. Doesn't work. Big generally seems to equate with an ambush hunter

from Josh, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Thought Sue was the biggest T.Rex? Well, think again. Latest finds of 5 seperate Tyrannosaurus rex fossils in the area have been estimated to be 10 percent bigger than Sue. Note the word here is Tyrannosaurus rex, not Imperator.

So prehps Tyrannosaurus was more Tyrant than we though.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Levine, you are right. There is no solid evidence to put the dromaeosaurids in as pack hunters, which destroys just about their only hope for the place of the deadilest dinosaur, as deadily pound for pound they might be. To a slow, bipedal ommivore shuch as me, a dromaeosaurid will certainly seem more deadily to me than a Tyrannosaurid. But to a 7-ton Anatotitan, it would probally laugh off a dromaeosaurid as a trival matter, fearing a Tyrannosaurus instead. It's just a matter of who's deadiler to who. But if you're talking in terms of firepower, Tyrannosaurus had more firepower packed into his mouth than 10 adverage dromaeosaurids, not to mention all this damage will be concentrated in one area.
from Josh, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Before I draw any flack, my point is, before you assume that the raptors were deadiler than T.Rex, in terms of hunting or whatever, you have to have a null theory or statement to disprove. And I see you haven't been doing a good job of it. I have a certain adverness of qouting dinosaur experts like Bakker as I'm quite certain he goes by without using any null too. Besides, if we really wanted to learn, we have to unlearn. I notice there have been a lot of new ideas about T.Rex coming up recently, and these are the results of questioning the almost-widely-accepted-by-the-layman scavenger theory. Some of the ideas might be wrong, but form experience, I can tell you almost nothing is constant in paleontology. Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark. Professionals built the Titanic. Do not be relutant to question the popular theory of the Dromeosaurids/raptors being the deadilest predator around. Chances are, its wrong.
from Levine, age 25, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Responding to BBD's old post about lions hunting elepants therefore raptors would have bround down large prey. He's using the well known
Principle of Uniformitarianism. This means what is happening now happened way back when too. Since hunting big prey goes on now, it seems relatively safe to assume that it occurred back in the Mesozoic as well.

Yikes!!! No! Flag called on account of misue of the Principle of
Uniformitarianism! (That principle is normally used in conjunction with geologic processes, and not biological ones, anyway).

It is NOT safe to assume that all behaviors found in the modern world were present in earlier times. Heck, you could then argue "domestication occurs in the Holocene, therefor Late Cretaceous coelurosaurs domesticated Late K Asian protot-ungulates".

For complex behaviors, or behaviors currently restricted to a single clade,you cannot just assume they were present at any earlier time. If you are proposing unusual (derived or complex) behaviors for some fossil form, you should back it up with some sort of testable or supporting evidence (morphological structures which correlate with that behavoir; phylogenetic bracketing; good old fashioned taphomony (can't be beat!); etc.).
from Levine, age 25, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

It sounds like you really like dromaeosaurids, especially Deinonychus
(who wouldn't?), and I think you've convinced yourself that pack
behavior in these animals is inevitable. I am a graduate student now
working on my Ph.D. You've probably been interested in dinosaurs for
a while (I'm guessing) and I know when I was 17 (I'm 25 now) it seemed
that a lot of the scientific community were way to conservative and
hardnosed when it came to interpreting dinosaur behavior.

First of all, it's good to see you've put some thought into this, but
it's hard to really know what is going on with specimens unless you
actually see them in three dimensions, or visit certain dinosaur
localities, etc. I'm not suggesting you haven't done this, but my
guess would be that most of your exposure to dinosaur data has been in museum displays and perhaps you've participated as a volunteer on

Let me tell you, from my own experience with sauropod dinosaurs, that
you can look at hundreds of photographs and illustrations and still
not really understand what is going on with a fossil animal until you actually hold the thing in your own hands, turn it around, look at it
from various angles, measure it, etc.

And of course, these animals, no matter how alive they are in your
head, are very much dead. We only have a very narrow amount of
information available to us, because these animals first had to die,
their carcasses had to "survive" scavenging, their remains had to be
buried fast (and only in certain sediments at that), the remains have
to fossilized, the remains can become distorted, then they erode out,
someone has to catch them at the right moment, not all the bones are
collected, their remains are brought to a collection, they're
prepared, and then finally a paleontologist can begin to really look
at the bones and describe them!

So, with that in mind, there are more things to consider. We cannot
(although wouldn't it be awesome if we could?) observe living
dinosaurs doing their things. We have to collect extremely indirect
evidence, and in most cases it is equivocal -- not supporting or
rejecting our hypotheses. But let's examine your hypothesis ...

When we come up with a hypothesis in science, we try to phrase so
that we are likely to REJECT it. Once you have an idea you really
like (I know I have a few about dinosaurs myself), it is very easy to
find evidence to confirm, at least to yourself, that you're right.
But we want to try to get rid of our own personal biases as much as we
can. Otherwise, we might overlook or subconsciously ignore
contradictory or vague evidence.

So, we could start out setting up a hypothesis like this:
Dromaeosaurids did not hunt in packs to bring down big prey like
Tenontosaurus. We would call this your null hypothesis. Then we set
up a different, or alternative, hypothesis like this: Dromaeosaurids
did hunt in packs to bring down big prey like Tenontosaurus. In every
case where the evidence is equivocal or vague, we fall back on the
NULL hypothesis.

Let's look then at the Tenontosaurus situation.

Evidence 1: Deinonychus and Tenontosaurus are both known from the
Cloverly Formation. Of course, just because two animals are found in
the same locality doesn't mean that they interacted with each
significantly. We fail to reject our null hypothesis here.

Evidence 2: There are teeth of Deinonychus present with Tenontosaurus
remains at more than 16 sites in the Cloverly. Okay, we have teeth
associated with this big herbivore. But here are some things to
consider. The teeth may have been shed during an attack, but there is
no evidence at any of these sites to outright reject the possibility
that these Dromaeosaurids were just being opportunistic scavengers.
The teeth could just as easily be shed by scavenging theropods as well
as actively predating ones. Hmmm ... looks like we can't be sure
again, so we fall back on our null hypothesis again.

Evidence 3: Some specimens of Tenontosaurus appear to have bite marks
in the bones and are also associated with Deinonychus teeth. Great!
Irrefutable evidence, right! But, wait! Who made the bites? How do
we know that another dinosaur, or even something like an alligator,
didn't make the bites? We don't. It's really tough to match up teeth
marks with dinosaur jaws, because teeth can slip, or not penetrate in
certain areas, or any other number of problems. And even if we were
to show that indeed Deinonychus or another dromaeosaurid bit the
Tenontosaurus, it wouldn't tell us whether the bite was made during an
attack or as a scavenging mark. Too bad, but it looks like we have to
fall back on our null hypothesis again.

Evidence 4: Tenontosaurus is too big for one dromaeosaurid to handle.
Pack hunting was obviously necessary to bring them down. Well, okay,
but this assumes that Deinonychus had pack instincts, something we
can't directly observe. Plus, maybe once a Tenontosaurus got big
enough, it was left alone. Maybe if Deinonychus was a pack hunter, it
attack juvenile Tenontosaurs. And, it turns out, a subadult
Tenontosaurus MOR 682 at the Museum of the Rockies was found in close
association with 11 shed Deinonychus teeth. The skeleton appears to
have ripped apart pretty good by some dinosaurs and perhaps this
indicates that many Deinoychus were employing pack tactics to bring
this smaller guy down. Or, this smaller guy was killed by a bigger
theropod and then scavenged by Deinonychus. Or, this smaller guy died
of other causes and was later consumed by Deinonychus. And even if
these animals didn't have pack behavior, they could be drawn to a
stinking carcass like vultures. So again, our evidence is equivocal.
We fall back on our null hypothesis yet again.

Well, we could go on like this for a long time, but I hope you see
the point I'm trying to make. As scientists, we are duty-bound to be
skeptical of every new (or even not so new) claim until we find
evidence that positively supports that claim, or hypothesis. And
remember, every hypothesis and theory in science, in order to be
scientific, has have these four qualities: 1) It has to be testable;
2) It must be repeatable by other researchers; 3) It must be
falsifiable; and 4) It should have predictive power.

Science is a tough business, and paleontology is extra hard because
we don't have as much control over the evidence as do some
experimental scientists. Even though it would be awesome if theropods
hunted in organized packs, dispatching hadrosaurs and sauropods left
and right with cool, calculated efficiency, we just don't have enough
positive evidence to say, definitely, yes this is what happened.

But this is where you come into the picture. How badly do you really
want to know and see and touch the real evidence? Maybe there's
something the scientific community is missing, or hasn't considered,
or hasn't looked at, or who knows? New technology may come along to
help us address questions we can't even fathom answering or even
asking now. If you want to become a paleontologist, maybe you can put
your mind toward figuring out just what the behavior of dromaeosaurid
theropods was like. It will take a lot of math, anatomy, physiology,
ecology, behavioral studies, geology, and even more determination and
perserverance. And maybe after all that you will still not know the
whole story. That's the risk but that's also your chance to possibly
change the way we currently look at theropod behavior.

Finally, I should add that some of the information above I got from
the following sources. It's important, where ever possible, to give
credit to previous researchers, even if you don't agree with their
conclusions. Good luck with your question, and feel free to ask more.
On this list, we can't always return responses right away (most of us
our very busy with our research, teaching, and other stuff) but don't
be discouraged. At the very least, use the library frequently and
always look for evidence that does not confirm your ideas.

from Levine, age 25, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Sorry BBD, no recount. You lost.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Hey Bill, were are you? Oh yes, I figured out the Mad Cat thing. THe reason they called it the Mad Cat was because it looked like a cross between a Madrauder and a Catapult. The clans refer to it as the Timber Wolf though, very lethal design, strap some PPCS and ERs on it and it'll be virtually unstoppable by anything under its weight. Heat will be an issue though, and remember, the Mad Cat cannot jump, so be aware of that and avoid boggy situtations.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Here I go again:

Every time I see something that says that dromeosaurs "best" suited for hunting I can't help but question what this is based on. Is it mostly assumption. Is it that they are seemingly "better suited for speed",Or the arsenal of claws that it unleashed on its prey with in such a fury. why is it considered so much more efficient than a tyrannosaur (especially T.Rex). And what hard evidence is this based upon. I think it possible that a Tyrannosaur may have have been more efficient (or at least equal) in its pursuing and killing ability than a dromeosaur.
from FD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

How cute BBD, but your statements don't carry any weight. Try harder to hurt our feelings.
from Joseph, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Don't answer him Honkie, you're too good for him. He's not worthly of your time. I think Zoom DInosaurs have wasted enough on him. BBD, you might suddenly find yourself with losses but no targets.
from Grace T., age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

I agree Honkie, for the sake of stability, I will not answer BBD, secure in the knowledge I have already won.
from Lillian T., age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Break on bone? I donno, but Triceratops bones have been found with teeth holes on them, not marks, but holes. I suppose T.Rex could have left fragments of teeth behind, but that would have hardly impeded it's preformance, not to mention it could keep replacing its teeth . Pound for pound, the raptors are deadilest. But being deadilest pound for pound hardly makes you the deadilest. If I were to go for the deadilest predator by pound for pound, I would go for the mongoose instead of the lion, the monitor lizard instead of the Crocidile. But we know for a fact that technically speaking, more people die every year from the lions and crocs instaed of mongoose and monitor lizard. We do admit that the raptors were probally deadiler pound for pound, but I hardly think that would have made them literally deadiler than T.Rex. Talking in terms of damage potential and time efficency, T.Rex probally exceeded any other animal in the mezonic world for killing prey. Note I refuse to pit one animal against another in a deathmatch as it was the exact thing they would not have done. I prefer to look at which was the deadiler predator. Anyway, could you cut down on the insults? We don't want another "Great War" over here. You don't know them and they don't know you, so I don't think any insults will be really accucrate anyway. By the way, could we talk about something else? I'm real sick of this vicious circle and do have a life you know.
from Josh, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Yawn...go on BBD, nobody wants to start this all over again. You can rant and rave all you want, but I'm not going to answer you or your challanges/insults because of the simple fact we have already won.

Say Brad, could you find that book "The New T.Rex" by Duncan Watt? It's a good book for the new year. (I got it for Christmas)
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

BBD, there is just one problem with your statement: T-rex's teeth were not knife-like. I agree that raptors were certainly more deadly than T-rex.
from ?, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

You know...I have looked my facts over, my logic and my "lies" and YES I am right. Pound for Pound the raptor was deadlier than any Tyrannosaur, not to mention the quick, speedy, bouncy Tyrannos had slim knife like teeth that would break on bone and the only weapon they had was distance running and heads. Little bigger than a raptors head in head to body comparison. DW, honkie Tong, Ive been gone this long and your still making fun of me while Im gone. Thats just ridiculous. Really its funny. Too worried about me. You do need to get a life, sitting at your computers, hidded in dark rooms making bullying people, over a simple discussion board. Good GOD. Not to mention, when things start getting hot for you, you "make up" your own characters(Like Sue Hendrickson and Rober Bakker, HAHAHA) to make a group against me. Now I have more than once discussed without one matter of harassment, and you singapore kids seem to not be able to do that. SOmethings wr! ong. I got it, you guys are bitter and angry and take out your aggression here. Shame it is. I notice the only points you confirm are the ones in Popular and recent AMerican Media, that shows you cant think for yourself. Not paleontological material at all.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

Did you know that the Megaraptor was found in Argentina by dr. Fernando Novas. Unlike most dinosaurs the megaraptor was one of the smartest dinosaurs ever!The south american name for Megaraptor is M.namunhuaiquii. By the way Happy New Year!!!!!!
from nicoleb, age 8, georgetown, ontario, canada; January 2, 2001

What war? You really got issues son. No need to get bent out of shape cuz my facts blow your opinion out of the water.HA.
from BBD, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 2, 2001

One more thing, welcome back Brad. We're now currently at peace, BBD's long gone. The Great War is over.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 1, 2001

Thread is fine, as long as it dosen't make navigating the page a nightmare. How bout putting the same format as now, but every message has a tag to show which post its responding to?
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 1, 2001
That's a good idea. How does everyone else feel about it? JC

I got some great new dinosaur books for Christmas. I'll give mini-book reviews here:

_The Illustrated Directory of Dinosaurs and other Prehistoric Creatures_
Edited by Ingrid Cranfield
Salamander Books, 2000; 360 pages
This is a small, compact paperback book with lots of great colourful pictures. Unfortunately, you've probably already seen most of them. The dinosaur section is rather unexciting, not containing much new information. It could have been written 15 years ago, and probably was. However, the pterosaur section that follows is amazing! There are tons of pterosaurs I've never heard of, with colourful paintings and detailed black and white pictures of their heads. There are a lot of facts on a page. TIDODAOPC turns out to be the best pterosaur book around-- I highly reccommend it for the pterosaurs alone.

_The Simon & Schuster Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs & Prehistoric Creatures_
Barry Cox, R.J.G. Savage, Brian Gardiner and Colin Harrison
Revised and Updated by Douglas Palmer
Marshall Editions Developments Limited, 1999; 312 pages
Again, the dinosaur section doesn't impress me. Protarchaeopteryx and Sinosauropteryx have been added, although they are poorly drawn compared to the rest of the illustrations (which are very good). The rest of the content seems unchanged from the 1988 edition--some invalid names remain, and Teratosaurus, Proceratosaurus and Dilophosaurus are the first three 'carnosaurs' listed! Yet again, the dinosaurs in aging popular books just don't interest me anymore. Luckily this is an encyclopedia of Dinosaurs and Prehistoric Creatures (as if dinosaurs weren't), and there are plenty of other animals that I'm learning about for the first time. There are some really cool early tetrapods (including the amphibian armadillo, _Peltobatrachus_) and many great mammals. If you don't like prehistoric mammals, you probably haven't read this book. They are so cool! And there are so many of them! Hours of fun! Your family might hate dinosaurs, but they should enjoy looking at the prehistori! c mammals with you. Another highly reccommended book.

from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; January 1, 2001

I like the idea of having each thread on a different page. Sometimes we need to reply to specific messages. I don't find that format to take long to read at all.
from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; January 1, 2001
I'll have a technical person look into implementing it. JC

Hey people, did you know an F-14 squardron called the "Raptors" are redefining their name to refer to a bird of prey, not the dinosaur as it was before as new research shows that the raptors were not as deadily as previously thought. So much for raptor-mania...
from Honky Tong, age 12, ?, ?, ?; January 1, 2001

Brad! You're back! Amazingly enough, I have Swoop!
from firebird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 1, 2001

A fuzzy Pteranodon named Swoop is one of the newest dinosaur-like products of 2001.

from Brad, age 13, Woodville, ON, Canada; January 1, 2001

Well, it looks like everybody is finally in, happy new year, century and millennium everyone! You only get this thing once every thousand years, so I thought it should recieve mention here.
from Honkie Tong, age 16, ?, ?, ?; January 1, 2001

Hello people! Welcome to the new Millennium! Sorry I wasn't on very much last night.
from firebird, age ?, ?, ?, ?; January 1, 2001

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